They supposedly can be disabled in settings- but we all know that won’t last. They’re going full Microsoft Skype mode and it’s only a matter of time.
Okay, I was expecting something a lot worse than what the article describes. I hate ads as much as the next guy, but at least these ads seem somewhat topical and also give tangible rewards for doing something that you might do already anyway (stream a game to a couple of friends in a private Discord server). Maybe I’m misinterpreting the change, but this doesn’t seem that bad?
I’m not sure what everyone’s hangup is about Discord. My group that I play video games with swapped over to Discord from Skype years ago and it’s still a good experience. You want to hear about enshittification? Just look at what they did to Skype over the years. That platform is completely unusable now.
I doubt Discord will remain totally useable forever, but at least there are budding alternatives out there that might be able to carry the torch if Discord can’t continue it’s freemium service. One that I’ve tried in the past is Guilded and they are sort of like a Discord clone if you really want the same general user experience - pseudoforum live chat with VOIP lobbies, streaming capabilities, etc. I tried it out and it was fine but not worth swapping everyone on our Discord server to the new one since it wasn’t substantially different or better in any way.
At least it is not “Enshittification Continues: Lemmy to begin showing advertisements on it’s fediverse platform”
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… and open source projects continue to list discord as a community option to discuss items about their project.
https://revolt.chat/ Cope, but would be good for this to become a thing.
skype > discord
mmmm, i hate discord, anybody have any good self hosted recommendations? Preferably, fully featured, or featureful, and not some random garb.
Flirting with matrix, the concept fucks. I just haven’t gotten around to doing anything with it yet. I know there area few others, like revolt, which is kind of a mess, and various others in the same category.
IRC.
IRC has been in the back of my mind, not familiar with it other than the fact that it’s ancient as fuck, and it works:tm: so. I’ll probably consider it at some point.
Mattermost used to be the go-to alternative, not sure why it is not mentioned yet. Then it looks like Revolt is getting traction now.
mmm, when i click on a website and the first button that appears is “contact sales” i’m sure it’s a good product.
Agreed
maybe i’m just a little too open source pilled, but if i click on a page, and it’s not immediately apparent to me what is going on, immediately ignore everything on the page, because IMO, if you don’t think your front page is important enough to explain what your product actually is, i’m not going to be acquainted enough to ever use it lol.
Soumds like revolt might be interesting to you.
i’ve messed with it, i know you can technically self host, but last i checked that’s docker only, which is not what im looking for. I want something more stable than revolt, with more features. And i’m not married to the discord UI personally, so anything that does a better job is welcome lol.
TeamSpeak 3 now has a UI similar to discord.
hmm, interesting. Teamspeak was never really something i’ve bothered looking into. Might give it a look, though to be clear, im not interface picky, i hate discord, through and through, it’s awful.
Needs a license for larger concurrent user counts, which is probably why it fell off in favour of Mumble and then Discord.
yeah this is my main concern, anything with licensing can change at a moments notice, just look at vmware lol.
I do use mumble though, it’s great, just a little feature lite. But what it does is perfect so can’t really complain.
If you want to get to know Teamspeak, you could start by trying to share a file with someone on the same server! Good luck have fun!
yeah, i might give it a shot if i find nothing else interesting.
Kinda surprised TS is still around. It’s all we used in the ‘00s for gaming, but slowly lost relevance thanks to in-game VoIP and other popular solutions like discord.
Mumble is better
Remember the emails from 2015? The plan was to have a platform, that just works. No bullshit, no issues, just functional features.
Even when Nitro was originally added, it was 5 bucks to optional support, if you’d like to help the company. Now the same sub is 10 a month, and half of the client is unusable without it.
Not to mention all the paid account banners and borders they’re selling for an egregious amount of money
Genuine question, but what’s unusable without Nitro? I don’t use Discord very often, and the only thing that I’ve seen Nitro pushed for is reactions from other communities, and that’s pointless anyway.
video calls and screensharing is very, very rough (locked to 480/low frame rates) without nitro, for one. the file sharing limits are also extremely restrictive.
its actually locked to 720p/30fps w/o nitro
with some of the worst realtime compression i have ever seen
i agree, but you cant just lie to make a point
Fair enough. I tried video calling with it at the beginning of the first lockdown, and it was fine for what I needed, but most of the video calling programs were a bit rubbish then.
I very rarely share files with people outside of an already set up organisation, so I haven’t had a reason to try their file sharing.
Vencord is pretty decent as an alternative to nitro if you haven’t heard of it. It pretty much is a modded client that unlocks most of the nitro locked features
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I’m actually not sure about modded clients for android/iOS, maybe someone in this thread knows of one.
I use Vesktop for other mods. Not touching the paywalled stuff because I don’t want to put my account at risk more, than I need to
I don’t get why micro transaction are never micro transactions. If a cosmetic item/feature in a game or sth. like discord would be 50ct up to a Euro, I would here and there buy sth. But they always want 5-15€ and that isn’t money I’m willing to spend. Take Signal for example 5 € for a badge for 30 days is just stupid. I recently donated 20 euros still 30 days. The thing is I don’t care for the badge but I think it could be beneficial to promote the ability to donate via the badge but the system they use, is really stupid.
I think the reason they’re not micro has to do with whales. I bet the whales outbuy normies at a rate that means companies make more selling 1/10th the volume, for 20x the price. The whales go hard. Did you hear that some games will task an artist with creating game-skins for a single person, because they know they can get that person to buy even at a really high price
it’s also about sustainable income. 50c one time purchases are garbage for the bottom line, subscriptions look amazing to investors because it’s effectively guaranteed income that you can assume a current subscriber will remain subscribed until the service shuts down.
Think you’re right.
Founders get told:
Raise your prices. Push them up 2-3x or something, and lose 10% of your customers. Those you lose are generally your worst ones. Huge net win.
a big part of the issue with micro-transactions are the payment processors.
visa and MasterCard basically own it, at some part of the process.
Everyone is optimistically altruistic until the corporate greed comes a-knockin’
The Post office should host community webservices. This is our internet.
The best approach to “free” things is to understand that it’s never sustainable. Eventually it will have to become a paid subscription or ad supported or both.
And regardless, you’re going to end up being the product if they can discern anything marketable about you from your use of the “free” product.
But just be ready to jump to the next free product.
(Obviously it’s possible for there to be FOSS but that comes with some challenges as well.)
Eventually it will have to become a paid subscription or ad supported or both.
The 3rd option is FOSS with donations… But everyone expects everything on the internet to be free (as in beer) these days
Nothing is truly free/gratis…
a word to rebut this claim: Wikipedia.
It all comes down to capabilities, and expectations. Under current circumstances, they fail to meet the expectations, but vastly exceeded their capabilities, by trying to chase the hype, rather than provide what the users needed. It costs them next to nothing to create a new profile border, but fixing issues from 2019 takes engineer hours
The best approach to “free” things is to understand that it’s never sustainable. Eventually it will have to become a paid subscription or ad supported or both.
It will become enshittified unless that new service is open source and “free as in beer”. With no profit motive, it can grow gradually and be supported by it’s users. Like Lemmy/ kbin / Mastodon.
Lemmy’s development is to a large part subsidized by some kind of OSS fund.
That’s fine. Probably not venture capitalists that need paid back.
I never ever understood and still doesn’t understand why people like Discord. It’s not indexed, it’s a constant background noise. It’s absolutely not user-friendly. You can do better with IRC.
Discord is remarkable. It has seamless video streaming from your desktop or apps to any number of watchers, with multiple peopld being able to stream at once. Paired with voice chat, it’s perfect for group gaming sessions, movie showings, desktop troubleshooting, video chat, etc. Besides some issues with input devices, it’s always worked flawlessly for me. Plus, obviously, a persistent server for chat.
And the fact that it’s fast, resource-light, and free are just the icing on the cake.
Unless IRC has changed drastically in recent years, or maybe people are using proprietary extensions, it only supports a fraction of the features discord does.
The sheer amount of features and stability.
I don’t know anyone who’s used IRC in the last fifteen years at least.
At least back when I used IRC, it wasn’t indexed either. It was just an alternative to AOL Instant Messenger or Yahoo Chat.
They also are forcing US users into arbitration unless you opt out by May 15th by emailing arbitration-opt-out@discord.com, so you can’t sue them. This is similar to LG with their compressor fiasco in their fridges where they put arbitration agreement crap on the box.
I am so happy there is no other country where this bullshit is legal
What should I put in the opt out email?
“get fucked! Best regards <username>”
Wait what? Can I get a link to read more about this?
Well, that’s what you get for letting a private company replace and open protocol with a proprietary solution because it’s easier to use and has some cute emojis.
Discord keeps getting used for things it shouldn’t be used for like tech support. I will be glad when it dies. Don’t hide your support behind a platform that can’t be searched from the web. It’s not a replacement for forums and issue trackers.
I couldn’t agree more. I hate that some open source projects are using discord for communicating.
I especially hate that it’s being used as a login for some things. Goddammit, let me just use my fucking email address.
If a service ever says discord only when I try to login, that service no longer exists. Find an alternative or make do without it.
You found out about Nostr yet?
On the other hand, after looking for and failing to find an issue I’m facing, discord servers usually have way faster response times compared to forums.
I think this is the main disconnect for people.
What a lot of technical people want is a forum. They want to have every problem discussed one time and then if someone brings it up again they can link to it and not have to discuss it again. This exists, it’s called stackoverflow and if technical people want someone to close their question as “already answered” or “off topic” they can go there.
Most discord communities though aren’t attempting to build a permanent corpus of knowledge carefully curated and searchable. Instead it’s basically the polar opposite, someone can show up and ask the question that every beginner stubs their toe on and people answer it and chat with them and help them learn.
It is more work for the people giving out the help, but it is seems like it’s what new users want. A place they can ask a question and get an answer or get someone to ask them questions to improve their question.
A lot of technical people get blinded by their own knowledge. Indexable searchable information is great if you know what to search for, but new people seldom do and they don’t even know the right way to formulate the questions. Asking other human beings that know what they are doing is a good way to learn stuff. Discord facilitates that, people like that, and no amount of highly technical people kicking their feet and holding their breathe and shouting at the communities “you are doing it wrong, you need a highly curated forum where questions are never asked twice” is going to stop human nature.
We used Slack and we had a Confluence Wiki. No one bothered to keep Confluence up-to-date because everyone was just used to ask ad-hoc questions on Slack and get an answer by one of the respective team members. We “solved” this issue at one company with one reasonably simple policy: people were free to ask questions on Slack as much as they wanted, but the response should always have a link to the related Confluence page. You could even answer the question directly with a TL;DR, but the Confluence Page link should always be part of the answer.
Every time that there was an Slack response without a link to Confluence, the responder’s team would get a mark, and every month the team with the most marks would have to bring something to the rest of the company. Basically, it forced everyone in the team to step up their documentation game, and it got everyone in the spirit of “collaborative editing”: sometimes, people would just write create a page with a very basic paragraph. Another team member would use that to extend the answer and so on. In just a few months, every department had a pretty solid documentation space and we even got used to start our questions with “I looked for X on Confluence and didn’t find anything. Can someone tell me where I can find info about it?”
So, yes, you are right about the disconnect between “what experienced people want” and “what beginners want”, but even in this case it would make sense if most project managers used real-time chat platforms only for initial inquiries and triage, but used this inflow to produce long-term content in a structured document or wiki.
This seems like a reasonable approach when all actors are being paid to contribute.
I think where discord actually ends up helping is for community projects where everyone is basically a volunteer. It works because it lowers the barrier to helping.
The official documentation of your favorite programming language or highly popular library or framework is probably pretty locked down with a semi high quality bar for contributions. This is a good thing, those docs are consumed by lots of people and the documentation has no context for what the person is trying to do so making sure they are clear, concise, and easy to understand creates a high quality bar.
A lot of projects end up with enthusiastic helpers who probably aren’t going to dedicate the time and energy it takes to become a core maintainer. You can either leave these people and their possible helpfulness on the table or you can harness it with a discord server.
People that might not be the right fit for writing an in-depth general purpose getting started guide are still pretty great at answering peoples questions when given context and the ability to discuss it back and forth. That’s what projects are actually taking advantage of, a large group of people that are willing to help others learn how to use the programming language / library / framework.
The people they help end up having a good time with the friendly helpful community and hang out and help others. If you do it right you get this virtuous cycle where people using the thing you made help each other be successful making the thing you made even more popular.
RTFM, is ok in a corporate environment when part of your paycheck is for RTFMing. But for the last 70 years people that know how stuff works have been shouting RTFM at people wanting to learn how stuff works. But some people just aren’t good at RTFM or plain don’t want to. Discord, and other chat platforms, end up facilitating their learning models.
If there is one belief that I’ve held for long is that we Free Software would be in a better situation than it is today if we simply dropped the whole idea “community”, “done by amateurs” and “volunteers in their spare time” and really start treating the whole thing as a professional industry. This whole xz crisis further exacerbated this belief.
Almost everyone takes this work for granted and this is why is not properly valued. We should raise the bar at all levels: someone who wants to contribute in a project needs to show that they can deliver everything, maintainers should not accept “half-baked” proposals because “it is better than nothing”, developers should be more than comfortable sending a quote with a proper rate to someone that requests a feature.
And if those people don’t want to do any of that, then let go see how much the commercial alternative would cost them.
I get the frustration and there’s a lot of free software that is so vital to our modern way of life that it’s crazy that it’s always one dude in Nebraska maintaining it for the last 60 years for free as a hobby.
That said, I think you should consider the great landscape of dependencies and who the competition is.
For example, I’ve open sourced a bunch of things in my life and I have a library used to make testing more ergonomic. I worked very hard on it and I like it. There are other libraries that solve this problem to, I’m biased, but I like mine the best. I like when I can help people write higher quality software with nicer tests.
My “competition” isn’t commercial offerings it’s other free offerings. Now in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t really matter if anyone ever uses the thing I wrote, but since I wrote it and put it out into the world I get to decide how I want to interact with the wider community of people that use it or might think about using it.
If I take a hardline stance, everyone has to be committed, but the right quality bars, do things the right way, etc. I’m free to do that. The most likely outcomes are two fold. One, I’ll have a very high quality thing to my standard. Two, probably not a lot of people are going to be using it because I’ve made it too hard to participate and they will go off and use an inferior solution. Again, if it solves my problem no big deal. But I might be missing out on someone that, if they had been allowed to participate more easily, could have made my thing better, faster, more secure.
So that’s the bargain. Do you have strict controls and limit your exposure to the good and bad out there in the open source community. Do you have lax controls and expose yourself to all the good and bad. Most maintainers end up shooting for the middle, open enough that good contributors can come and flourish but strict enough to keep bad contributors out. It’s a spectacularly difficult problem though, so I’m always happy to hear how other people think about it.
I feel like another good point is that discord servers are generally very easy and low-rent to set up, compared to setting up and properly moderating a technical forum where everything is supposed to be well-organized. Lots of smaller open source projects would have to take away time they’d actually use to develop their tools, in order to set up a forum and keep it running. In those cases, they’re better off just using a discord server, and then hosting a quickstart guide or a commonly asked questions thing, and you can put either of those basically anywhere.
I completely agree, fuck discord
Sincerely hope this will be the beginning of a D-Exodus, and that all those open source projects who made the choice to only use Discord for community communication will move to something which is search engine friendly for searching for answers.
This!
Discord was great and I’m pretty sure that some projects will take its place (like Revolt maybe that others are mentioning) but PLEASE FOSS PROJECT JUST USE AN INDEXABLE FORUM like Discourse, so that people don’t have to signup and enter a server for each project they use!
It was either that or they start charging. They’re gonna piss people of either way but at least it’s still free.
Discord is a sack of shit anyways…I don’t get the obsession?
After however many years I finally joined two discord instances for some niche topics where community was hard to find elsewhere.
I haven’t used IRC in a few years I admit, but I’m a few months in with discord, and so far it has never stopped feeling like IRC with a confusing interface, a gaudy new coat of paint, and emojis everywhere.
I have no idea why it’s seemingly the ONLY place anyone wants to create an interactive community anymore for so many things.
Because its zero-effort to make a functional forum (no hosting or backend to be set up) and you have almost full control over the space / it’s isolated from other communities (unlike reddit)
EDIT: I don’t like discord either, but I can see why content creators and the likes would prefer it to other forums
this thread is making me realize I’m clearly missing something. How do people actually use discord? Me and my friends basically use it as semi-permanent group chat. A few different topic areas, and no stupid android/ios compatibility issues. I’m also in two servers for some small clubs. Do people really use it the way they would lemmy/reddit?
A few open-source projects I follow use it as their main community tool and it sucks.
I don’t mind my friend groups using it because it’s just for ephemeral chats and gaming anyway, but I want to know why these other communities think it’s appropriate.
I like to watch twitch streams and play modded videogames (minecraft, lethal company, valheim). Every single twitch streamer has their own discord. Fine I guess, they want control over their space and it’s full of cat pics and tattoos anyway. But the mod makers do the same, patch notes on discord, feature discussion on discord, some even close their githubs and want bugs on discord. I don’t want to be part of your shitty community, I want to know which recolored slime is killing me through walls so I can disable it in the configs. And because the discord search is garbage, I still have to sift through racist memes and wildly outdated info to find what I need.
Edit: tldr: I think I probably could’ve saved myself a lot of time by just saying that discord is like slack but for friends/fun.
I didn’t think people use it like lemmy/Reddit. People use it like IRC. That’s the analogous tech. IRC is better in almost every way, but not in the most important ways: ease of use, and voice chat.
I know only a handful of people who could set up a server for IRC, but in discord, it’s a one-button process. Sure, you can use a public IRC server, but then your channels are harder to organize and you don’t have as much moderation control. I dn’t think
I would vastly prefer IRC, but even if it was easy to set up, I would still need something for voice chat, and, sure, there are plenty of voice chat tools, but not ones that integrate with text chat so well.
I think a lot of people like the API and the bots built from it, tho personally that’s not something I use much.
I’m in probably ~50 servers: groups of friends, video game guilds, tech chat (eg HTMX, Lit, Svelte), random interests (eg mechanical keyboards), and community servers for video games (eg a couple of LFG servers, a couple servers where I can ask questions to tryhards, streamers’ communities, etc).
I would vastly prefer to use something FOSS, but there just isn’t something that does it so well and so easily – and even then, I’d probably have to use discord for a bunch of these things.
Let’s say it’s like Slack + Zoom, but it ends up used for things that would have made way more sense as a Lemmy/Reddit/old school forum. You can’t find anything old without pausing the scroll, the interaction is piss poor because nothing is visibly sticky for more than a couple of hours even on a slow channel, and then because people (rightly) feel that it’s more like a chat, the feed fills up with low effort nonsense and dick-baggery.
In my company, Slack is useful because we’re all stuck in front of it for 8hours+ per day, we’re all incentivized to be on our best behavior, groups are mostly manageable in size, and to the extent there’s a social aspect, it is to replace “water cooler talk” which was always light and ephemeral anyway. It works… fine. I don’t love it, but it works fine. Zoom too.
Discord is also fine for what it is, but it’s terrible when it’s the only public facing option for sharing information and fielding questions about a project or topic.
For sure. Look, I hate Stack Overflow as much as the next guy but you gotta admit, for the big picture, long term, best practice for the future of software development, that’s the correct format: one question, focused discussion, end.
Discord’s failure to make its history available is really going to put a big hole in the middle of our cultural wisdom.
Every single entertainer (YouTuber, Twitch Streamer, etc.), community game server, some Open Source projects, Indie game developers and anyone who gets public support through Patreon uses Discord as the sole public hub. Colleges, Universities, Online courses also rely heavily on Discord. It’s a social network they can advertise, some servers are for subscribers only and is seen as a reward to get access to that. I’m part of a dozen or so servers for online things of interest to me, even though I hate the platform. It’s all silenced and without notifications, else I would go crazy, and I never chat with anyone there. But unfortunately there are several events, opportunities and activities that are exclusively communicated via the Discord server. It’s like cancer. Just like Instagram and WhatsApp, I have them not because I like it, but because if I remove them entirely or too aggressively it will take my social life with it.
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It’s decent for voice chat in games.
I’m not sure why it became the open source world’s documentation platform of choice.
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Mumble does that one thing just fine, but it doesn’t do all the things discord does.
And it’s not just the fact that discord does all those things that’s made it so dominant; it’s the fact that it does all those things in one place.
Even just the core features of voice chat, text chat, and the ability to set up a new server where you have extensive moderation control in one click – it’s what people wanted.
They don’t need a handful of different programs to glue together a shittier experience, they need a FOSS discord/slack.
Great, now you just need somebody to rent a server for you.
That’s where Discord won, along with being able to run in a browser for those who didn’t want to fill their PC with crap comms software for one PUG run through Uldir.
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??? I hope you don’t actually think this
There’s no reason to require everyone on earth to prioritize a better computer interfacing environment over their free time.
My time is worth way more to me than video game voice chat – but it’s not either/or. Thanks to other developers, I can have both.
Well yes, but at the same time if you had to pay a few bucks a month for Lemmy or it only worked on a special app, would you be on it?
Discord nitro is a thing. They are bleeding money like mofos. There’s no more investor money, they are desperate for income.
sounds like it’s time to allow third-party clients distribute the server software, shut down free “servers” and offer paid hosting and support. that would cut costs a great deal.
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OK. And how many other people would be here for you to talk to?
there are web clients for mumble
Does it also do temporary passes so you don’t have to give full access to people who only want to play alongside you once?
One issue I had with the Discord web client was the lack of push to talk. Anyone who raided with a Darth Vader will relate. I presume Mumble would be similar. You don’t really want to give a browser full key logging access. Useful for listening in though.
