Don’t really agree with this. If you look at it on an individual level, there’s a case for it, but on a social level, it’s dangerous. Individualist societies look for individual solutions even if the problem is social. There are problems that can’t be solved with any sort of medication, therapy, etc, because the cause of the problem isn’t with the individual. It’s impossible to know for sure if any kind of social change would fix her problems, but if suicide is simply the go-to answer when such a problem is encountered, then we will never know. And once this becomes normalized and people start accepting it as a viable solution, then it’s going to be a lot harder to materially improve things for people in these situations. Often it’s only when people see that there is no individualist solution that they start thinking in terms of systemic changes, and if there’s any kind of “solution,” no matter how horrid it is, they’ll turn to that first. I don’t want to create a future where, “I’ve tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit,” is met with a polite and friendly, “Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?”
Suicide is violence. Self-harm is harm. It’s nonsense to describe a process that kills you as “safe.” I understand that many people view it terms of rights or personal wills because those are prevailing ways to look at things, in individualist cultures. But life is inherently valuable and if someone thinks otherwise about their own, then they are wrong. I would make an exception for someone with severe, incurable physical pain, but while mental pain is just as real and valid as physical pain, the way it functions is more complex, and so I’m skeptical that it could be declared “incurable” to a sufficient standard, especially if solutions aren’t limited to the individual level.
The fact is that we ought to be striving to accommodate as widely diverse minds as possible. Both because it’s the right thing to do, and because diversity is valuable, and people who see things differently may notice or understand things that others don’t. If the diversity of minds starts to narrow, I’m concerned that it will continue to narrow until neurodiverse people are effectively eliminated from society, or be isolated without community, as more and more pressure builds against anyone who doesn’t fit the mold of a productive worker.
Suicide is violence
sorry that’s simply your opinion. for most who seek it for medical reasons, it’s the final escape. I don’t have enough familiarity with this case to judge but would want the option open should I need it. You have no idea what kind of physical pain people have to live with - shit that can’t be touched by opioids or other painkillers, like bone cancer. The only out for some of these folks is to be gorked to unconsciousness. I’d prefer to pass on that and go straight to the end myself.
I would make an exception for someone with severe, incurable physical pain
the problem with exceptions is that they’re often nebulous and lead to cover-your-ass decision making that disregards the best outcome for the patient. SEE: Texas birth control laws that supposedly have exceptions for the mother’s health, but in fact result in them waiting for their once-fetus to send them into sepsis.
Texas birth control laws
I would simply not be a fascist pretending to care about people’s rights and not design laws as if I were one.
And that’s great, but I have more faith in you - rando from the internet who’s expressed clearly well meaning desires - than I do in the system, whether that’s us’s crappy healthcare, NHS in the uk or whatever - I do not have faith in governments and with healthcare providers impressed into the task of deciding who gets to claim their pain is unbearable.
And for the remainder: people will suicide. If you take away their options, they’ll step in front of busses or jump off bridges, potentially traumatizing and putting others at risk. They’ll suicide by cop, they’ll drive their cars into the opposing lane. There’s something to be said for giving people the dignity of choice.
Good luck.
I likewise don’t have faith in governments or healthcare providers, but that’s where I don’t want to just place this in their hands and trust them to handle it in a responsible way.
The slippery slope falacy is so passé my dude, get on with it.
It’s not a fallacy to say that policy designed with the goal of normalizing something over time will cause it to become more normalized over time.
Besides, the responses in this thread are terrifying enough already.
Especially in a situation where someone could feasibly find other ways to “solve” their problem. Why would the slippery slope apply when people are already ending their own lives?
But it is it a greater harm to decline her request and force her to endure suffering (or risk more drastic methods)?
I hear where you’re coming from (I think), and agree this is tragic, but part of me is jealous of her.
How much that part of me equates to changes each day with my tension headaches
Personally, I think the greater harm would come from the normalization of suicide, because it will lead to cases where it is unnecessary. It’s better to err on the side of caution.
The prototypical case where assisted suicide is pitched is an elderly person, lying in bed in constant pain, unable to end their life without it. That I can accept.
But in this case, it’s possible that something could change that would allow her to live a healthy and happy life, and she wasn’t confined to a hospital bed, so if it was so important for her to kill herself she could’ve found a way to. What assisted suicide is doing in that case is not providing a last resort option, but removing the social barriers and stigma around what should be considered a last resort option. Making the process sterilized, clean, and beurocratic.
People on here have said stuff like, “Oh it’s so much less traumatic to her loved ones this way.” But what about without the policy? What would be stopping her from communicating to her spouse and family her intentions and the necessity of the act, because of the pain she was in? What exactly changes about the situation just because the state rubber stamps the act?
Many people choose suicide rashly and impulsively, and the social barriers we’ve created exist for a reason, because it’s supposed to be discouraged, it’s supposed to be stigmatized. Because if stigma and discouragement are enough to dissuade you, then it wasn’t actually necessary.
I don’t believe it’s stigmatized because society is compassionate and wants to help. It’s stigmatized because society loses a worker or soldier or taxpayer. I know that’s just how things work but it is disgusting.
Thanks for this, I really appreciate your nuanced stance.
I fear you may be correct, which feels uncomfortable (I disagreed with you originally)
I don’t want to create a future where, “I’ve tried everything I can to fix myself and I still feel like shit,” is met with a polite and friendly, “Oh, well have you considered killing yourself?”
Are you for real? This kind of thing is a last resort that nobody is going to just outright suggest unprompted to a suffering person, unless that person asks for it themselves. No matter how “normalized” suicide might become, it’s never gonna be something doctors will want to recommend. That’s just… Why would you even think that’s what’s gonna happen
…and did you notice how everyone was outraged by that? That incident was not an issue with assisted suicide being available, that was an issue with fucked up systems withholding existing alternatives and a tone-deaf case worker (who is not a doctor) handling impersonal communications. Maybe it’s also an issue with this kind of thing being able to be decided by a government worker instead of medical and psychological professionals. But definitely nothing about this would have been made better by assisted suicide not being generally available for people who legitimately want it, except the actual problem wouldn’t have been put into the spotlight like this.
You’re the one that specified doctors, not me. I just said I don’t want to create a future where anyone thinks it’s ok or normal to recommend suicide to people. You dismissed my fears as unrealistic, and then I presented evidence that it’s not just a far off possibility, but something that’s actually happened. Many people may find that story outrageous now, but it’s clearly pushing things in a direction such that in 20 years, who’s to say how people will react.
But definitely nothing about this would have been made better by assisted suicide not being generally available for people who legitimately want it, except the actual problem wouldn’t have been put into the spotlight like this.
Literally the whole thing would not have happened without the policy.
where anyone thinks it’s ok or normal to recommend suicide to people
Except that’s already happening even without it being normalized, there have always been assholes that are gonna tell people to kill themselves, especially if they’ve never seen the person they’re talking to before. I don’t see how this is any different.
Literally the whole thing would not have happened without the policy.
It also wouldn’t have happened if a fucked up system wasn’t withholding actual, reasonable alternatives that the person was clearly asking for. That’s my point. Let’s fix the actual problems, rather than try to silence the symptoms.
Bringing up gamers telling each other to kill themselves (sometimes genuinely, although they wouldn’t admit they were actually that angry) is not the gotcha you think it is.
Why dont you engage with what the person you are replying to is actually saying instead of grasping at straws.
Self-harm is harm. It’s nonsense to describe a process that kills you as “safe.”
Safe to her? No. Neither option can boast that.
Euthanasia is safer to everyone else around her. And tidier.
Get it?
And tidier.
Those two words are why I find this thread so terrifying and so alienating. I’ll never “get” the perspective that tidiness is a significant factor when discussing matters of life and death, and to be perfectly frank, it makes me feel like a lot of this is coming from a mentality towards suicidal people of “Get them out of my sight so I don’t have to deal with them and their negative vibes bring me down” rather than genuine empathy and concern for wellbeing. And that sort of mentality surrounding this, about how neat and tidy and clean it all is, how it avoids disruption to society, is exactly what makes the policy so concerning to me.
What makes you think that severe chronic depression is more curable than severe chronic pain? maybe within a year someone will come up with a new drug or therapy that cures certain types of severe chronic pain? Should we force people to endure the pain in the basis of this possibility?
Or what makes you think this woman’s problem is social? What if she has some genetic or neural predisposition to having such problems? Should we deny her request on the basis that normally mental health issues are social?
You are talking about accommodating neurodiversity but your view of life and mental health conditions is extremely black and white.
Mental health is socially defined to a very large extent. One of the ways that we evaluate a person’s mental health is whether their issues interfere with an ability to live a “normal” life, which includes providing for themselves. Well, a person’s ability to provide for themselves can vary drastically based on external circumstances, like how rich they are or what social services they have access to.
It’s my belief that it’s rare for evolution to screw up. Of course, sometimes it does, but I’d argue that many mental illnesses are the result of one’s mind being equipped for a different set of circumstances than the one they’re in. In some cases, there’s clear evidence that this is the case, but in other cases it’s more difficult to prove.
I just don’t believe we should give up on a person just because they ask us to. If a friend came up to me and asked me to help them kill themselves because of a mental illness, I would do everything I could to find an alternative solution and talk them down from it. I feel like that’s the normal response anyone would have, and people are treating it differently just because a state said that it’s ok.
It’s my belief that it’s rare for evolution to screw up.
That’s not how it works, I’m pretty sure… Mutations will have random effects and the species evolves based on characteristics being selected for based on better survivability, reproductive effectiveness, etc.
I would do everything I could to find an alternative solution and talk them down from it.
I’ve read your other messages and it seems that you’re thoroughly convinced that this wasn’t the case here. I suggest that you get a bit more context about this whole situation, as it has been a long path of trying multiple treatments and approaches, without any success. So it’s not even remotely close to what you suggest here. No Futurama suicide chambers here.
That’s not how it works, I’m pretty sure… Mutations will have random effects and the species evolves based on characteristics being selected for based on better survivability, reproductive effectiveness, etc.
That’s why I said that it’s rare for evolution to screw up, not that it’s impossible.
I’ve read your other messages and it seems that you’re thoroughly convinced that this wasn’t the case here.
I’ve made a lot of comments but few of them have been about the details of this specific case, I’m not sure which ones you’re referring to.
I don’t really see why you say you’d make an “exception” for strong and lasting physical pain (which by the way are of course the vast majority of assisted suicide cases), but not for mental health reasons. In this case multiple doctors concluded that the patient is unlikely to improve, and no progress has been made in over 10 years of therapy.
especially if solutions aren’t limited to the individual level.
What do you mean by “not limited to the individual level”?
What I mean by that is that there are some problems that affect individuals which are not caused by anything wrong with the individual, but by the world at large. For example, climate change. It can’t be solved at the individual level, and it may be possible to shut out and ignore it, but that’s not really a proper way of handling it. No amount of therapy or drugs will make climate change go away.
I’m not saying that the woman in question is killing herself for that reason. But I am saying that how much things like that can affect people’s mental health is something that is difficult to study and prove. One example that does have evidence though is social support for gender transition - trans people with social support generally have much better mental health than those without, but addressing this issue can require changes to society as a whole and not just the individual trans person’s behavior or mentality.
My concern is that people will overlook potential social changes to accommodate people, if they view the issue as solved by means of assisted suicide.
If someone wants to end their own life, that isn’t your choice to make.
No, but as a voter, it is my choice (to a degree) how the state responds to the situation.
Ah yes, you’re one of those people. “We should legislate what people do with their own bodies because I don’t like their decisions”
You people are already ruining the US, so now let’s do it to the world. Except that it was mentioned in the article that this was legislated and settled over 20 years ago where she lives.
“We should legislate what people do with their own bodies because I don’t like their decisions”
I mean, yes. That’s the vast majority of people, regardless of political affiliation, or where you live. I don’t think meth should be completely deregulated, for example. If someone goes to a hospital and asks a doctor to inject them with bleach to cure COVID, I don’t think the doctor should do it.
That doesn’t mean that I don’t support bodily autonomy, however. Just not as an absolute right, because I don’t consider any right as absolute. Rights have to be balanced against each other and considered in the context of their material consequences.
I don’t see how this is comparable to something like abortion, where only a fetus is being terminated, not a human being. Nor is it comparable to, for example, trans rights, where a person is aiming to live a happy and fulfilling life. Just because crazies want to restrict bodily autonomy in cases where there’s no valid reason to doesn’t mean that cases with valid reasons don’t exist, and discouraging suicide is one of them.
I am all about giving people the possibility to put an end to their lives and there are plenty of people who are living almost unbearable lives, full of pain and suffering. And I know it is wrong to judge people without being in their shoes but, part of me is refusing to accept that a person who is apparently, young and physically healthy and in a relationship where the other partner obviously cares about her is so depressive and miserable that she wants to die.
So I have mixed feelings in this particular case and I feel sorry for her family and partner, who I am sure really wanted her to get better.
Nevertheless, I am happy that there are still doctors who are willing to take such cases because I can imagine how hard and psychologically challenging it would be to work with those people and they have my full respect.
Yeah, especially with curable and non progressive conditions
Did you read the article? She’s been in intensive care for her mental health for a decade. This wasn’t some spur of the moment decision. Its taken 10 years to get to this point. To state that mental illnesses are curable and non-progressive is pure ignorance and you would do yourself well to learn how poor the prognosis is for people with severe mental illness. There isn’t a cure. You never feel whole or normal. Medication is a shot in the dark most of the time. Therapy doesn’t help everybody. Some people are truly and completely untreatable, and she is one of those people
to state that mental illnesses are curable is pure ignorance
Lol
Name a single curable mental illness.
I’ll help you out: there aren’t any. Some can be managed and worked around in day to day life. Some people may achieve a reasonable quality of life, but their illness will never totally disappear
I am a psychotherapist. Mental disorders are often curable. Our mind, our psyche, our brain develop and change in every waking moment, one small increment at a a time. A good indication for this are mental disorders themselves. Their emergence is proof of our mind’s capability to change - for the worse, in this case, but change nonetheless.
So in theory it should always be possible to change the other way around, to get significantly better to the point where the disorder is no longer present. (If you define a episode of mental health and wellbeing after a depressive episode as “managing” a still present disorder, then sure, they are incurable, but that’s because that’s part of your definition to begin with. The symptoms of a mental disorder can definitely disappear.) A more difficult question would be if our surroundings and social realities allow for so much change to take place. And sometimes, unfortunately, this isn’t possible, since our society can be a fucked up place and economic constrains have an unavoidable influence on our capability to shape our own path.
Still, in my personal experience working with hundreds of patiens in different therapeutic setting, most people can (and do) reclaim their mental health, given supportive surroundings and adequate treatment. From your pessimistic outlook at mental health I will cautiously assume that you don’t have those widely available to you. In this case you’d be somewhat right: Under such circumstances the possibilities to cure mental disorders are limited. Another complicating factor might be mental disorders themselves though. The feeling of “this is never going to get better, I’ll never be happy again” is one most people with depressive disorders know all to well. So if we ask the affected people directly we will often arrive at the conclusion that the disorders are in fact incurable. And that’s a horrible feeling for sure. I find it important to remember though that what our thoughts tell us in those dark episodes isn’t necessarily the truth. In this case I’d argue it isn’t. I’ve seen too many examples of the opposite, luckily.
This isn’t a problem with “my” definition of cure. I’m using the commonly understood definition. If someone is successfully managing their type 1 diabetes with insulin and a healthy diet we don’t say they’re cured. They still have diabetes. If they stopped taking their meds and ate a ton of carb heavy foods they’d wind up in the hospital in a matter of days.
Same goes with mental illness. If you stop taking your meds, going to therapy, etc. your mental state will decline again. They’re still mentally ill, they’re just managing it.
Perhaps some people have acute moments of distress to the point where it’s clinically significant and treatment helps them weather that moment. Eventually they may return to their baseline of not needing drugs or therapy. But given the context of this thread (a woman killing herself after a decade of unsuccessful treatment) I figured it was fair to assume chronic mental illness. Something to the tune of major depression, bipolar disorders, schizophrenia, etc.
The word cure isn’t a fluid term to me or most people. It’s something that connotes permentant relief of a person’s signs and symptoms of a given illness. Something that often isn’t the case for mental illness
Yeah I also got a friend like that which I just met over Snapchat. I’m from Austria and I immediately started crying when I heard that. I mean good when people can choose how to go out but still sad. She’s still living though and going strong 💪
Ah and she’s also from the Netherlands
I’m currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I’ve been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.
This is the wrong decision. Suicide is usually a consequence of hopelessness. In my experience, hope can be brought back to most people suffering from mental health issues.
It also sets a dangerous precedent. A way out, so to speak, for people with a temporary, overcomable problem.
(For the record, I am ok with medical assistance in dying when it comes to chronic severe pain and illness).
Have you read the article?
Under Dutch law, to be eligible for an assisted death, a person must be experiencing “unbearable suffering with no prospect of improvement”. They must be fully informed and competent to take such a decision.
After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. “I knew I couldn’t cope with the way I live now.”
In the three and a half years this has taken, I’ve never hesitated about my decision.
How is this a temporary and overcomable problem? It seems clear that it is not temporary and no kind of treatment worked for her. As per the law, there must be unbearable suffering without prospect of improvement, and during the multiple stages of this process, apparently no one came to the conclusion that that wasn’t the case for her. So how can you make that assessment?
I’m currently midway through a program to become a therapist. I’ve been in the mental health space for quite some time, and worked with students of many ages.
So you are not a therapist.
Bodily autonomy includes the right to die, if one choses to do so. Are you against bodily autonomy?
And what do you think would happen if she had been denied? Instead of a dignified death in a safe environment she might have resorted to options available to her, possibly endangering other people as well.
How did you misconstrue their comment so badly? Are therapists not allowed to work with students? I believe there is a clear and obvious difference between bodily autonomy, having the right to die with dignity, and euthanasia. This lady stated she “cannot cope with the suffering” and yet she proceeded to do so for three years while waiting patiently for approval. IMO anyone with truly intolerable suffering (mental or otherwise) would have found a way out long before this decision.
Are therapists not allowed to work with students?
Read the comment again and try to figure out why I said they aren’t a therapist. Hint: It’s in the very first sentence.
IMO anyone with truly intolerable suffering (mental or otherwise) would have found a way out long before this decision.
How would you know?
The previous commentor sounds exactly like all those people who have harassed Zoraya with their bullshit “miracle cures”.
It had always astounded me that we offer painless, merciful euthanasia to our pets and animals, both wild and domesticated, yet not to our fellow humans, who must suffer until the bitter end.
There definitely is not a miracle cure, and sending someone random messages is not the way. I definitely agree with you there. Medical Assistance in Death should be more widely available as well. The one point I think is important to clarify is that it shouldn’t be used if there is reasonable expectation of some kind of improvement. In mental health, I think the vast majority of cases are improvable, at least beyond the point of suicide ideation.
I responded to another comment with some clarifications.
It’s the remnants of the religious infestation that still slumbers in the collective consciousness of society that makes madness like that possible.
Do you really think that becoming a therapist is a good idea when you can’t even read the article which lays out her hopeless situation?
Also this isn’t a precedent.
Also why are you okay with assistance in dying when it comes to pain and illness but not mental illness? Because you can’t see/diagnose the latter so easily?
This is definitely a nuanced discussion and every situation is different, so I’m not going to make any sweeping statements about the whole thing, but I generally see suicidality as a symptom of something else. If we can improve the “something else,” the suicidality improves or even goes away in the vast majority of cases.
This is different from other Medical Assistance in Death situations because in the cases where it is implemented because of pain and illness, there is no reasonable hope of improving their outcomes. In the vast majority of mental health cases, there is a lot of hope, even if the patient does not see it (which is often. Most situations where a person expresses suicidal ideation and intention to family, friends, or therapists do not end in follow through. Having someone to talk to about those thoughts helps. Even validating their thoughts helps: “It makes sense that you feel like that, honestly.” But ultimately, you want to help them get through to the next day. The vast majority of people who were in this circumstance are glad they did not follow through).
Again, the discussion is nuanced and I don’t think Lemmy is the best place to facilitate this discussion, but that is more or less my take on it.
Dude… Did you still not read the article?
And do you think that it was willy billy that the state approved her request?
I don’t think your distinction makes sense.
You’re saying most mental health/suicide cases have hope, and thants probably true! But the article wasn’t “every suicidal person granted euthanasia approval”, it was approved for one very extreme case of mental suffering with no indication of improving. That would be like saying “most cases of pain still have hope”. Yes exactly, they do, but there are rare, chronic cases where euthanasia may be a valid option, right? And just as much as suicidality is just ‘a symptom of something’ else, isn’t pain also just a symptom of something else?
And obviously we should help suicidal people to improve their mental health, but in her case she has been struggling since childhood with no indication of improvement. So how was this “the wrong decision” for her?
but I generally see suicidality as a symptom of something else. If we can improve the “something else,” the suicidality improves or even goes away in the vast majority of cases.
If it was as easy as that she would never have gotten her request approved. It is extremely rare for someone at her age to have her euthanasia request approved on account of mental issues. Hell, it is near impossible to get your request approved for this at old age, let alone when you are in your 20’s or 30’s. So please be careful with comments like this, as having exhausted all available treatments is a prerequisite and there are a lot of them. Mental healthcare in the Netherlands is in a fairly shitty state thanks to 20 years of budget cuts and ‘let the market solve it’-policy, but it is not so shitty that we just resort to killing off troubled people.
If medical professionals would even have had the slightest feeling that there was a way remaining to get her some semblance of a normal life, she wouldn’t have been eligible.
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I feel sorry for her partner watching your loved one die is fucking brutal.
Hope they get supported in the aftermath.
“People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting,” she told the Guardian. “I understand the fears that some disabled people have about assisted dying, and worries about people being under pressure to die… But in the Netherlands, we’ve had this law for more than 20 years. There are really strict rules, and it’s really safe.”
She embarked on intensive treatments, including talking therapies, medication and more than 30 sessions of electroconvulsive therapy (ECT). “In therapy, I learned a lot about myself and coping mechanisms, but it didn’t fix the main issues. At the beginning of treatment, you start out hopeful. I thought I’d get better. But the longer the treatment goes on, you start losing hope.”
After 10 years, there was “nothing left” in terms of treatment. "I’ve never hesitated about my decision. I have felt guilt – I have a partner, family, friends and I’m not blind to their pain. And I’ve felt scared. But I’m absolutely determined to go through with it.
Honestly and genuinely, I’m glad to see all that she has put into this decision and glad the state is allowing it. Now she doesn’t need to cause further pain to others through a traumatic suicide and she can gain the peace she’s been longing for.
Each day, so many lives are snuffed out of existence without a second thought. She has given this an incredible amount of thought, time, and work.
Rest in peace, Zoraya. 💜
P. S. There’s thousands of live today that want to live. They don’t want to die. And yet their lives are taken away in an instant. Perhaps we should focus on saving them rather than making someone like Zoraya feel even worse.
Life’s one big experiment anyway… There is no peace.
Idk, i am torn on this. Obviously people have had depression with suicidal tendencies since the dawn of humanity, but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems. I am Zoraya’s age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade. Euthanisia should be available to anyone with a terminal condition, but she still has her whole lofe ahead of her. It saddens me that the state has decided it is better to let her have a painless suicide rather than address the issues that make her life no longer worth living. To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless, but that is the society we have collectively decided we want to live in.
I’m glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.
I have no doubts about her sincerity to die. I just think that a better society would have been able to find her a reason to live. She is absolutely in the right here, and has done nothing wrong. It’s her government which has failed her.
but i feel like most modern suicides come from the failings of oir current systems
This is something you should probably confirm and not decide on gut feeling
I am Zoraya’s age and have struggled with depression and finding a reason to live for well over a decade.
Depression is not a binary thing… it’s not like you have it or not… most people “feel blue” every so often and that is mild depression… some people are rendered catatonic and can’t bring themselves to go to the bathroom so they soil themselves… that is also depression but a much more hardcore case… comparing whatever you have vs whatever this person you don’t know have (not counting they mentioned Zoraya suffers from other mental health issues as well) is not right… it could be like me comparing the salty burger I had the other day which I didn’t like vs the literally rotten food being served to inmates in Murica.
To me there is no excuse for otherwise healthy adults in the prime of their lives to feel hopeless
So you ARE comparing the salty burger vs rotten food on the same level…
I’m glad she will be able to die on her own terms, but there is no excuse for this to be her only option. Our society has failed Zoraya and countless people like her.
Again you double down on the notion that “her depression is just sadness, have you tried smiling today?”. Also, this is not her only option, this is the last option after a decade of trying other options
Why are you assuming that her mental situation developed as a result of society or “the government”? The article mentions that her conditions are chronic and started developing in early childhood. People can have mental conditions without any particular external trigger.
She has trauma, according to the article. Most traumas are largely systemic issues that have been improperly handled.
Fair enough — though the trauma is also just one of the named conditions, and we have no idea what that trauma was caused by.
Depression and anxiety are also heavily influenced by societal conditions. She would probably still have to deal with these issues but to a much less QoL damaging extent under a more humane system.
I read somewhere that we have way more suicides in general than before. That seemed plausiblevso I didn’t look it up proper. Also, whatever her problem is, that’s not what assisted suicide is for , she is abusing the system. The backlash from this improper use will impede access for the people who really need it.
She’s run out of treatment options and is still symptomatic to the point that her quality of life is severely diminished.
It wasn’t an overnight decision and has been reviewed by multiple medical teams, over 3 and a half years. All stated in the article.
the backlash from this improper use will impede access for the people who really need it
You aren’t her or any of the multiple doctors that have evaluated and tried various treatments with her. If you want to get into research and help look for cures for the vast, vast number of illnesses that contribute to people seeking this treatment, please do. Or help advocate for more money being funneled towards healthcare (including for education and training), cuz from what I understand there’s not a single country or healthcare system that has adequate resources to help everyone just in terms of the number of people available to provide what treatments we do have
I’ve been in and out of therapy and on and off meds for 32 years, nothing has helped, I wish this was an option. God speed to her.
I love you username
Thanks
The world we live in, where this news travels all over the globe, and we get to argue about the death of a girl on the internet.
Funny times, to say the least.
I’m against it. Not sure what else to say.
Thats fine to have your opinion as long as youre not stopping someone else from doing what they want with their own life
I think the question is one of balance for me personally. Where do you draw the line?
Like, this person seems to have been in a pretty long queue and had a lot of time to evaluate, but is that denying her dignity? Should there be a waiting period, or is that denying someone healthcare?
I think we would all agree that we shouldn’t allow an 18yo who just broke up with their first SO to decide to have a doctor help them unalive themselves, right?
Is the three and a half years of waiting and treatments that this woman has undergone too much? Not enough?
I’ll admit that it feels bad to me to allow a 29yo to go down this particular path. People who are seeking death are rarely in the kind of headspace where I think they are able to meaningfully consent to that?
And this feels meaningfully different than the case of a 90yo who’s body is slowly failing them. This is an otherwise healthy young person.
Idk, there are no easy answers here. Bodily autonomy is important, but so is helping people not engage in extremely self destructive behavior. If we didn’t have that imperative, fire departments wouldn’t try and stop people from jumping off bridges, right? Where is that line? I don’t know, and I wouldn’t want to have to make that call.
I share a lot of your questions about this, but the following parts made me uncomfortable agreeing with you:
People who are seeking death are rarely in the kind of headspace where I think they are able to meaningfully consent to that?
And this feels meaningfully different than the case of a 90yo who’s body is slowly failing them. This is an otherwise healthy young person.
She has the following to say about that: “People think that when you’re mentally ill, you can’t think straight, which is insulting.”
Mental illness is an illness, and can be chronic and progressive. They can cause someone to be unable to carry on living, maintaining a livelihood, afford their own medication, psychiatric visits and therapy that they would need to even want to live in the first place. That’s not even to go into the absolute hell people in such situations can go through everyday.
We can debate on what constitutes “a well-thought-out decision that takes into consideration every available option” and I would actually say that one should give those options a try, but to deny that a mentally ill person can make their own EOL decisions makes me terribly uncomfortable.
In my opinion, sure, there should be a waiting period, to filter out those chronic episodes that lead to spur-of-the moment impulses, or decisions that are strongly linked to temporary conditions. This waiting period can be used to think things through, prove that they’ve tried means available to them, or even give them the chance to try the means they wouldn’t have had access to otherwise (like specialized help, therapy that wouldn’t have been available to them, etc). Now, I think what happens next is up to these medical professionals: do they deem one’s condition to be intractable and no amount of medication and therapy and counseling can make a difference? If they deem the situation to be hopeless, and the patient agrees, then yeah, the patient can make their exit. Otherwise, the medication, therapy, counseling or whatever it is that they’ve been trying should continue. If funds are needed for this to continue, then so be it. Those people who want to be no exits can be counted upon to fund this, right? Those people denying exit should put their money where their mouths are.
If signing up to an EOL waiting list could be the way for people to consider their situation and try out things that might help them, then so be it.
Oh, sorry, I’ve been rambling. My point is, yeah, there should be a waiting period that would double as a chance for people to get the help they need (but don’t have access to or maybe the motivation to). And more importantly, that anyone, and I mean anyone (okay, there’d be a triage system in place, but just allow everyone in, and sort them out once they’re in) can sign up.
The way I imagine things would go is I can just walk into some office, inform the person in the counter that I want to have a passport to neverwhere, and they’d ask me to file some paperwork and after a few days, I’d be in a clinic where someone would perform a psychological check-up on me, and do some interviews. Then after a few more days, some doctor will be informing me of my diagnosis and options—or perhaps just flat out saying I’m completely mentally healthy and my petition is denied (if I’m lucky maybe given a list of people to contact to help with my problems). If I’m continuing the process, then I’d choose which option I want, go with the treatment or other, and like, hopefully continue until I can manage my situation with minimal help!
Do we really need people to sign up for a passport to the great beyond just to get the help they need? No, in an ideal world, there shouldn’t even be a need for this. But in this kind of world we live in, I think allowing people to safely cross the streams with dignity and peace of mind (after giving it a good try, and concluding that it really can’t be helped) is a small kindness society can give to the suffering.
EDIT: Some proofreading.
See, I feel like your whole post could be summarized as, “some people’s mental illness makes them unable to work and earn money, so they’re too poor to afford treatment, and therefore the morally correct thing is to just let those people kill themselves.”
And while I don’t think that’s exactly what you meant, it’s how it comes across. Almost all of your points are some variation of who’s gonna pay for their treatment and take care of their physical needs.
And I would strongly argue that the answer is instead to have more robust social safety nets to cover those needs. Allowing people to kill themselves as the solution is hella dystopian.
But, I’m not saying that this is 100% always right. This is a hard issue with no clear answers, and I am absolutely not minimizing the pain of mental illness. My point is that mental illness is much less understood than physical illness, and I wouldn’t trust any diagnosis that said the condition could never be resolved. In the same way that I would be loathe to euthanize someone with a physical illness that has an acceptable chance of being transient, I’m loath to do the same with most if not all cases of mental illness. Especially if the person is otherwise very young/healthy.
And while I don’t think that’s exactly what you meant, it’s how it comes across. Almost all of your points are some variation of who’s gonna pay for their treatment and take care of their physical needs.
Indeed, that’s not what exactly what I meant. Thanks for giving me the benefit of the doubt.
My main point can be summarized in that second to the last paragraph, which I doubt has communicated things adequately.
To reiterate: it won’t be initiated by the medical professionals. They’re simply there to ensure that someone applying for this procedure are indeed “proceeding of their own accord and have made sure options have been considered”. The waiting period is there to make sure that not only they’ve arrived at this decision after careful deliberation, but also to force them to consider and try out the options available to them. The process can be terminated at any point by the patient, and the final step will not proceed without their permission.
My point is that mental illness is much less understood than physical illness, and I wouldn’t trust any diagnosis that said the condition could never be resolved.
I accept this point. This is why I put the emphasis on the decision of the patient. And this is where I think our positions fundamentally differ. Promising treatments may or may not be there, may or may not be there in the immediate or far future, but it’s on the patient to consider. The medical professionals are there to ensure that the patient has considered available options, and have exerted reasonable effort to improve their situation. Whether or not the patient has made “the correct decision” isn’t the point—but rather whether or not the patient has made an informed and well-thought-out decision.
I share your opinion that in an ideal world, this shouldn’t even be needed. That even though the option would be there for anyone to take, no one will take it in an ideal world. But we are not in such an ideal world. We can strengthen our social safety nets to help people suffering from the debilitating effects of mental illness (among other sources of suffering), and that will do a lot of good, but until we arrive at a society which no longer needs a dignified exit because no one ever wants to exit, I am of the opinion of giving them that option.
Actually I’m going to go prevent a young person from killing themselves, just to watch you cry.
You’re the person who would force a baby to be born and live a life of pain, suffering, and burden on those around them instead of abortion. You’re not saving a life, you’re destroying them.
Answer me this, why? Why are you against it?
This is more of an anti-natalist position than a pro-choice one. The right to bodily autonomy includes the right to reproduce, even if you think the parents are too poor. The two situations aren’t comparable because one involves a person making a decision about a fetus, and the other involves the life of a full-fledged human being.
Nobody is forcing anyone to abort a pregnancy? Those are simply options for parents to take if they want to.
So is this option to die with dignity when life is suffering.
Where is your attorney badge, for you clearly missed your appointment.
People have the right to have children, regardless of if the circumstances they’ll be brought up in are up to your approval. To say they shouldn’t have that right is not pro-choice, it’s anti-natalist.
Yes and who denies them having children?
The right to bodily autonomy includes the right to reproduce
It also includes the right to end your own life. Are you against bodily autonomy?
If someone walks into a hospital and says they want to inject bleach into their veins to cure COVID, is that still covered under bodily autonomy?
She didn’t want to cure Covid in a hospital, she wanted to end her suffering by ending her life in a dignified way.
So are you against bodily autonomy?
And you achieve what? A person to constantly suffer, for what? Your righteous high ground? You condemn that person to torture, you realise that right?
Why?
Cool. Don’t do it yourself then. Not sure what else to say.
Her life is not your choice though. Thankfully.
I’m not against it but I upvoted you because I think you have a fair position and expressed it honestly and in a completely reasonable way.
None of us signed up for this shit.
I truly mean this in good faith: you would honestly rather that she continue suffering?
Death is permanent and cannot be undone. Once someone dies they take all their love, potential and beauty with them. We can only live with the memory of it, but that memory doesn’t have the ability to create new things or react to life in new ways.
That said, people should be able to end their suffering in a dignified manner of their choosing without suffering more. No one asked to be alive, it’s a burden imposed on them by the will of the living. The least we can do, then, is to make living as devoid of suffering as we can for everyone.
If potential is key, I say keep the context of the MAID process but instead of outright death make it cryonics. Plus other potential relevant volunteer stuff and organ donation stuff lined up. Even if the initial cryonics technique is not even close to viable, other stuff could be transformative. If cryonics has any chance to work, things will get appreciably better in 300-or-so years right?
Hopeful worst is my brain in a jar mostly playing VR and sometimes knitting yarn via robotic arms. Lots of ways it could be better. Also unlike traditional cyborg stuff with all-machine life-support, I would like to still have a complex microbiome if not taking it further with symbiosis.
Unsolicited Conservative: “Has she tried to put God on that wound? If only she was religious…”
Dude, doctors will even try homeopathy before resorting to euthanasia.
What leads someone in her situation to decide to go down the euthanasia route rather than regular suicide which doesn’t need any approval?
It’s a morbid thought but euthanasia approval seems like it could often be a slow drawn out process, and someone able-bodied wouldn’t necessarily need it.
For me I don’t want someone to have to find me and deal with the aftermath. I’d much rather it be a planned thing so no one else has to suffer just because I needed to end it all. Unfortunately I’m in a country where that’s not possible so when the time comes I need to go deep into a forest or something.
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making someone else do it because although you want it done, you can’t bring yourself to do it when the time comes
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making someone else do it because you don’t want to fuck it up and deal with the rather significant aftermath after waking up 3 hours later with only a pumped stomach
Plus, gathering from comments about the article cuz I’m lazy, but I gather (and empathize) there’s the added benefit of giving any loved ones time to prepare and say their goodbyes without potentially traumatizing anyone that might find you after
Quick edit someone else commented the same thing literally right below 😶🌫️
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This is mentioned in the article. She chose euthanasia because someone she knew growing up committed suicide and she saw how it devastated the family.
Also I imagine the anxiety about messing up without professional expertise would be awful. Plus worrying about legal repercussions for any assistance. Etc. etc.
Its still suicide.
Again, no, it’s assisted death. Quite different.
I hope she finds the peace she didn’t have in life.
If you die, there is no peace to find … there is nothing.
“Nothing” is peace for some people.
Amazing
And that’s perhaps the most peaceful peace. A peace only nothingness can bring.
Nothing is a peace.
Asking as an atheist myself: what is “nothing”?
What do you remember about before you were born?
Lots, see another reply I’ve made
That’s a pedantic way to answer a question that you understand the purpose of, but are choosing to answer it hyper literally. So, I’ll respond hyper literally. You don’t remember anything about before you were born because you weren’t there to experience it. You’re recalling scientific theories and stories passed down through the years about historic events that took place before your birth.
The question again since you want to be hyper literal is “what do you remember about ‘your life’ before you were born?”. It’s a thought experimemt to make you think about the totality and finite of nothingness.
I get what you meant by the question but I’m trying to demonstrate that it is impossible for us to conceptualize what nothingness is without something. It’s a philosophical issue that science can’t answer. You’re welcome to whatever beliefs and answers to the question you like, but without a way to falsify it, that’s all it is. A belief* (edited correction to autocorrect). Not scientific truth.
Further edit: just to be sure I’m clear, you’ve asked me to imagine what life was like before I was born, thereby pointing to my birth, which is something. My life is something. I don’t know what life would be like without
Imagine a mind, a person, a body… then imagine it is not there anymore.
But that requires me to imagine something, which is not nothing
Remember the 13 billion years before you were born? More of that.
Yes, I remember parts of it because I enjoy learning about history. But I’m remembering something, which is not nothing.
Beige. Forever.
I used to think that, and then I smoked some space dust and now I’m not sure anymore.
Is space dust what the kids are calling PCP these days?
DMT, PCP isn’t really my thing
Never tried it, just know it was called Angel Dust at one point
