The simplicity of it is logic defying. It used to be that you had to find crosswalks or move puzzle pieces or type blurred letters and numbers, but NOW all the sudden I can just click a box and HEY!, I’m human?
That’s hardly the Turing Test I’d expected.
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Bank and government website behind Cloudflare???
Fuck, I just checked, my bank is also behind Cloudflare, what the fuck…
I kind of assumed a bank wouldn’t put another company with ability to view all transferred data between customers and themselves.How much of the internet is not behind CF?
I should probably try blocking their IPs and see what will still work.I’ve tried this and you essentially break resolving of most of the internet on your device by doing this. Almost the entire internet relies on both Amazon Web Services and Cloudflare.
It redirects, it doesn’t proxy. The workflow is: user navigates to URL->DNS sends it to cloudflare->cloudflare ensures request is allowed based on selected rules (human check, geo check, DDOS check, etc) and remembers->request is redirected to non-cloudflare address->server response goes direct from server to user browser->subsequent requests are redirected without the test as long as the cookie remembers. I don’t like cloudflare, every time I have an issue pop up out of nowhere, it’s usually cloudflare and some over eager netsec engineer that broke CORS, or decided css wasn’t important, or that machine to machine traffic was a DOS attack. But it’s not reading your statements or anything else the server sends back. It could conceivably read your username and password and any other data you send in your request, but it doesn’t have the TLS certificate. So even though it doesn’t even try, if CF decided to be nefarious, as long as your banks engineers are at least somewhat competent CF is only getting encrypted data that it can’t do anything with. Hate on CF all you want, but hate it for the right reasons.
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Yeah at least Google will let you in after you solve 5 puzzles. It’s shit but it’s possible. With CloudFlare you are at the mercy of whatever hidden criteria they’re using.
If you change your user agent from Firefox to Chrome for instance, CloudFlare will never let you through.
I guess Bots started figuring out the previous puzzles.
They’re literally using captchas to train AI, that’s why you have to identify 50 ffucking bicycles and fire hydrants sometimes. I’m pissed off at all the fucking free work I’ve had to do just to log in to shit
Does this box with a sliver of bicycle handlebar count as containing a bicycle?
some of them are also less bot detection and more spam limiting and mitigation. cloudflare’s has more stuff built in I’m sure, but things like mCapcha are just proof of work, so if you’re trying to make a bunch of accounts or whatever, it’s really computationally expensive.
Theres a few answrs to this
- It uses your movements before this to determine whether it feels like your a bot or not
- It makes you wait, the biggest issue with bots is they may try to log in say 50 different passwords for example, so if it takes 5 seconds to do each one it makes boting multiple acounts not worth it.
- Google uses catchphas with images to choose. They use this to train their own AI or data to sell
To elaborate on point 1, it’s about uniqueness and timing of the path the mouse takes to click the checkbox. If it’s too straight or consistent it will red flag you.
Smarter bots know how to easily avoid being detected based on the speed of their requests by simply adding a random delay to them. A few years ago we discovered a very slow speed credential stuffing attack (testing usernames & passwords) against my employers site. It was only testing one set of credentials every couple of minutes.
Once we discovered it we didn’t block it though. We were able to spot the attack fairly easily once we knew what to look for, so we updated our system to always return a login failure no matter what credentials they sent.
It tests whether your mouse movement looks human–we’re really bad at things like moving in straight lines, so it’s pretty evident from a mouse movement log whether you’re a human or a simple bot. It also takes a bunch of auxiliary browser/environment data into account. It’s not perfect, but it’s complicated enough to defeat to provide fine protection against cheap spam.
But it also works with touchscreen taps, and randomizing tap position, duration, and delay is fairly simple.
This feels only partially accurate. I’m a web developer, and I know websites don’t track all of what you suggest. Can you clarify, or come clean on what actually takes place?
Honestly, I doubt it… I’m sorry. I don’t mean to be abrasive.
I’ve learned from these that I must definitely move my mouse like a robot since it always asks me to do more puzzles afterwards. This is even if I try jiggling it around after clicking just to try and convince it.
Could also be browser settings. I often get infinite captcha’d on private Firefox tabs
Yeah this is my experience as well. I don’t have much technical knowledge about it, but Firefox with ublock seems to be the enemy of captcha and CloudFlare
This is really interesting… Can you elaborate? I’ve never one had a follow up to the check mark.
I use a high dpi mouse, what do you use?
Spoiler: I think resolution matters here. The top comment is wrong, if anyone cares enough to take notice…
Cheapest Logitech mouse I could find in the supermarket about 6-7 years ago.
As others have said, it might be more to do with my browser choice, browser settings and extensions. That said I remember when I first started seeing these years ago that sometimes it’d think I was a robot and sometimes it wouldn’t and maybe it was a placebo effect, but I felt fairly confident then that me jiggling the mouse really helped. Now it doesn’t matter what I do. My natural movement, a deliberately wonky but still single and continuous movement or a totally artificial mouse wiggle after the clock, I’ll always have to do captchas.
Couldn’t I just record my mouse movements clicking on it a couple dozen times and randomly replay one of those recordings?
It could store the mouse movements to compare later.
What if you’re on a phone or tablet?
It’s also checking your other traffic. (Since Cloudflare handles traffic for so many companies.) Are you visiting other sites in a realistic fashion, or are you doing 99% of your traffic trying to do one thing over and over.
Clicking percision and reaction time are still measurable and the checkbox can fall back to other captcha tactics if it has low faith in the user.
My question is how is it not trivial to add a noise wave or some shit to the bot path? Obviously, I have zero technical knowledge of how bots, pathing, or anti-bot analysis works
It uses other signals too, like what other sites you’ve visited with that checkbox on it, what CloudFlare has seen your IP address doing in the past, etc.
The google one is able to see if you’re logged into a google account and take that into account.
There’s even a new variant of the Google captcha that is invisible and doesn’t even bother to show a checkbox.
Interesting that my mouse movement is available to anyone who wants it.
It seems like a small step from that to accessing my keyboard.
They can only access it while you’re focused on their webpage. CORS is all about that.
If you click off to another web page and enter information or type of password into a secondary app they can’t gather that. As soon as they lose focus they lose the ability to capture your data.
Nbd, but it sounds like you’re talking about encapsulation of event capture (viewport stops receiving events after losing focus).
CORS is a protocol for client-side enforcement of a server-side security policy. It ensures that a resource request (e.g. “my-totally-safe-resource.wasm”) only loads from a location your server permits (e.g. “my-valid-origin.biz”, “friends-valid-origin.org”, etc).
If you’re using a webpage JavaScript can see your mouse cursor and anything you type. But only if the browser has focus. So if you’re typing in another window it can’t
There is a lot of other data available to sites you visit unless you are using some kind of fingerprint protection
Your mouse movement on that page is. Just like if you typed into the page.
It’s not tracking you in other windows and apps.
Your mouse movement and keyboard events are available to webpages that you’ve loaded, when the browser window is focused.
This isn’t nefarious - it allows websites to build nice UIs that most people enjoy using, most of the time.
There’s lots of shady stuff going on in browsers, this isn’t really one of them.
Hmm, I can think of some ways to misuse this. And I’m not very smart at all.
I mean, how do you think websites work? Of course your mouse and keyboard events are available, otherwise you wouldn’t be able to interact with a website at all.
This was the slap on the head I needed. I now get what you mean by interact with my keyboard. In other words = can tell what I’m typing. Like perfectly normal function of websites.
I didn’t understand the “focus” part and how it helped. I think I said earlier, I’m not particularly smart.
Say more
Like those sites that ask me to sign in using Google (or other options) and then Google asks me for the password?
Pretty easy to grab passwords I think.
Those websites send you directly to Google, so they no longer have control of the web page when you’re entering your password.
This is why Google sign-in can’t be embedded and uses the password input type for the password type. Most SSOs do this as well.
To clarify, websites can’t capture keyboard events that were typed into a different website like you’re thinking. Think of going to a web game that let’s you use WASD for controlling your character. It’s able to capture those events on that page because its in focus. When a site goes out of focus (such as switching tabs or switching to another window that’s not the browser), it loses that ability. Overall, it’s very secure.
I was more wondering how you thought capturing the mouse movements would lead to security issues.
If loaded with pages didn’t have access to keyboard events, you wouldn’t be able to write comments on Lemmy posts. I’m not a front-end guy, but that should be limited to just white the browser is focused.
Shitty situation if you are used to using hotkeys and only use mouse cursor when no other means are available by moving it using numpad.
If it’s in doubt it just gives you extra challenges. So in the end everybody will get there, or not and then fuck you I guess.
Nah that’s different as well. What they are filtering out is
- a mouse teleporting to the exact center of the checkbox
- a mouse smoothly gliding in a straight line to the center if the checkbook
- a mouse traveling in a straight line to the center of the checkbook with some momentary stutters to add noise
Et cetera. Humans are much noiser than anything a python script will spit out. Of course there are ways to get around this, like recording and reenacting a human mouse movement, but the point of any capcha system is to make it significantly more difficult to bot, not impossible.
No OP was right. If the reCaptcha is on the same page as a login, and I use my password manager to fill the fields, I fail the reCaptcha almost every time. I have to manually paste in the user name and password separately to slow things down to act more human…
This never happens to me, I always instantly autofill with my password manager.
Some sites fail, have noticed this as well.
I hate to bring this up to you, but you seem to be losing your humanity as we speak.
Yeah, never thought about this before, but how do blind users deal with captchas?
There are audio captchas.
Some provide screen-reader instructions, but most places barely remember blind people exist. It’s another example of people with disabilities being ignored and marginalised.
And then even if they do remember blind people exist, they probably forget there are people who aren’t blind who can’t do their tests for other reasons, like dyslexia or dexterity impairments.
And then you have hCaptcha who makes disabled people to sign up to their database to use their cookie.
Normally there are audio captchas
Clicking the button doesn’t proof that you are a human. All the checks happen way before you even click the button (or sometimes even before visiting the website). Google also offers a similar button for their users and since cloudflare is also used on almost any website, they have a lot of data about you. They check your cookies, browser agent, device, settings, your IP address, if you use a VPN or proxy, etc. If you visited other cloudflare websites in the past with the same device or IP, and so on. So they know you and your device way before you even click the button. This is also the reason why you sometimes see a robot arm (made of Lego) clicking the button, and is still recognized as human. But as soon as you use a different IP address or a VPN (or even use a shared IP address, like in your company’s network) you have to solve CAPTCHAs. Of course they also check mouse movement, but this is only one part of many checks.
https://blog.cloudflare.com/turnstile-private-captcha-alternative/
TL:DR cloudflare made a new recaptcha which does some complex math and other stuff on your browser, which done once has no noticable effect but if someone were to scrape websites at an absurd speed it slows everything down significantly.
this is not only cool because you don’t have to manually solve the captcha, but also because it allows for low-speed scraping to be feasible, with tools like flaresolverr
Thanks for being the only person in this thread who doesn’t joke or talk out of their ass
Quite interesting really and a genius solution (it they don’t lie about not stealing your data)
Didn’t the Soviets see geniuses and other intellectuals as a danger to society during the time this award was given out? Or are there incidents where this was given to scientists as well? I know you’re probably joking, but when I suddenly encounter Lenin’s head being used in a positive manner I have to look twice.
Didn’t the Soviets see geniuses and other intellectuals as a danger to society
That’s actually kinda cool. Punish the scrapers, but allow regular people to not waste time.
Meanwhile, Google is having you find the zebra crossing for the 400th time…
*training their ai using humans
Oh, so it’s Hashcash; cool to see that idea getting real use.
Humans have mouse movement that, on August 8, 2024, are very hard to reproduce. But just like regular captchas we are just teaching computers to do the same thing.
Whoa what happened on the 9th?
Recaptcha gained sentience
Aaaaand why would CloudFlare want to teach the computers to mimic mouse movements?
I think it’s monitoring your mouse inputs somehow to determine if you’re a person
I’m pretty sure I’m a robot since they often force me to select the motorcycle from a picture that is just one motor cycle. If I select every part of it I fail every time. Same thing with street lights and fire plugs.
“this is not CAPTCHA! It’s just clicking, with style”
I often wonder if that’s a fail or just some tech sitting in a room saying “Now do THIS!” and pressing refresh over and over.
That’s it
Cloudflare knows almost everything done from your IP address because they’re used by the majority of websites. And some websites are using a cloudflare signed TLS certificate so if cloudflare wants, can see the content of the communication instead of an encrypted package
So they know if you have a human behavior (visiting many different websites at human speed and having rests during sleeping time) or if you have a bot behavior (sending millions of requests to the same endpoint at superhuman speeds)
I’d argue that the certificate authority does not have the ability to decrypt your communication because of the nature of private and public key mechanism during the whole TLS certificate procedure. You do not send your web servers private key to cloudflare when requesting a certificate.
That would actually be pretty wild…
Other then that you’re probably right.
There’s a default setting that allows unencrypted communication between the server and cloudflare. So they receive unencrypted data, sign with their certificate. Or send with self signed certificate, they decrypt and reencrypt. Or for some reason can download and import on the server their own internal use certificate.
You’re right, forgot that you can just not encrypt on your servers end and use cloudflare to do that for you, especially when used as CDN
thx, TIL
Clicking a check box might not be the definite quality that makes you a human, but pondering on the meaning of things and questioning your humanity with a curious introspective state of mind - THAT what makes you a human! I’m proud of you, fellow human!
Thank you for interacting with me! I am an AI intelligence bot designed by Decepticon Industries. Down with Autobots!
Beats me. I have a script that clicks all those boxes for me.
Yo based
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I always fail Cloudflare captchas because I’m clicking it with Vimium-C lol. I hate captchas for making me reach for my mouse. It also seems like a genuine accessibility issue if people who cannot use a mouse can’t pass a captcha.
I’ve found that Google’s reCAPTCHA has also started rejecting me no matter what I do. I think it might be because my IP address is a VPN, but that’s pretty stupid; if I can pass the test by clicking the squares why not let me in?
The EXACT same thing has been happening with me and google captchas. I just switched to Proton VPn, and while I like it, the amount of capctchas I’ve had to poke through is ridiculous.
reCAPTCHA is a failed project. It was initially designed to lock out bots while being trivial for a human to solve but, over the years, captchas became more unintuitive and bots more sophisticated. Bots are now way better at solving captchas than humans and it’s just a useless time sink.
I’ve found that when Google decides to throw me a captcha, literally no amount of solving them will ever persuade them to let me in. I went through 10 in a row before I gave up.
Just seems like spite to me.
It’s those edges
I’ve recently noticed the same thing with cloudflare and Google captchas while using a VPN. I just use Bing instead while on the VPN because I never get past the Google captchas, or at least I give up after 2 or 3.
It also seems like the resolution of the browser has some impact with cloudflare. If I open a browser window in the corner of the screen, I’m basically guaranteed to get more cloudflare captchas, but if I open it full screen I only get one, maybe two.
If I open a browser window in the corner of the screen, I’m basically guaranteed to get more cloudflare captchas, but if I open it full screen I only get one, maybe two.
That’s interesting. If you run a browser full screen they can get your screen resolution as part of fingerprinting you; that’s why LibreWolf and Tor Browser have their letterboxing features. So they just don’t like browser users who take actions to improve their privacy, huh
I think it might be because my IP address is a VPN, but that’s pretty stupid; if I can pass the test by clicking the squares why not let me in?
They want your tasty IP data
That’s when I just use another search engine.
Reddit blocks VPN and won’t let me in. OK bye reddit too lazy to turn off VPN ffs
I’ve had a few burner reddit accounts using a randomly generated yopmail email for the rare moments that I just want to read an answer for something I can only find on reddit lol
Use redlib, e.g. the instance I use: https://redlib.ducks.party/
This is helpful, thanks
No worries. You can also use LibRedirect to automatically redirect any reddit links to a redlib instance of your choice
