They have never considered actually competing have they?
They do. For example here. Just not in your country.
They don’t compete here either.
They’ve stopped producing passenger cars, and the Chicken Tax means they don’t have to compete on trucks.
Big corporations know very well how competition works and would like to avoid it at all costs.
Former big corporation*
Who also worked primarily in Chinese Automotive industry*
They saw what happened in the 70s and said never again will they have to actually compete with better products
What happened in the 70s?
Toyota had small, fuel efficient cars and that’s what people wanted during the oil crisis.
Yeah, them and Datsun. Super reliable cars when US manufacturers were ugly slow tanks that wouldn’t make it 80,000 miles.
They’ve actually done the exact opposite. The lobbying, the import laws, the absence of a foreign export market, and the manufacturing of cars that would never pass safety laws anywhere else, all resulted in the kind of dogshit that Americans have to experience now. Why improve if you’re the only player
They have an export market, its the handful of douchebags in Australia that want compensator trucks instead of a ute
Couldn’t have a thought further from his mind
Detroit is easy to hate but there’s more wrong here than how much can-do energy they wake up in the morning with. If they competed on features and quality they could never compete on price. Everything we do to keep the dollar strong makes it impossible to manufacture here.
Nah man, that’s not the purpose of unrestrained capitalism. The point is to get big enough that you can buy out all the competition, then make your product cheaper and cheaper once there’s no one to compete against. It’s a bit like an economical algae bloom.
Michael Dunne has been competing the entire time, for the Chinese. His statements here aren’t fear, they’re shillery.
They saw what happened in the 70s and said never again will they have to actually compete with better products
Oh no! The type of capitalism where we have to compete!
Make it go away, Daddy Trump!
So free markets are a terrible idea now and countries practicing import substitution weren’t impoverishing their people.
US hypocrisy at it’s finest.
„Free market“? Speaking of hypocrisy. Chinese car brands are so heavily subsidized they probably cost the Chinese economy more than they make selling them at the moment. China is clearly trying to drown the global market with cheap cars so they can ramp up prices immensely once they have killed the competition and have become a monopoly. China hasn‘t been the extreme low income country to produce super cheaply for a long time and they couldn‘t produce cars this cheap in a free market situation.
Many countries and the EU have measures against such practices because state run operations with the sole purpose to destroy an industry (which this is) undermine the very idea of the free market or even trade relationships.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers and play the same little game China is playing but more cars is honestly the last thing we need right now. Tariffs are a much smoother option to deal with this even when they have a bad rep.
Ideally we use that generated money from tariffs to subsidize public transport so we don‘t get cheaper cars but cheaper alternatives but that‘s still just a dream I‘m afraid.
Whatever the case, one should look at super cheap cars and what that means in the long run more critically.
Alternatively we could start subsiding local car makers
We have been. Bailout after bailout. For the longest fucking time, and have had insane trade rules and tarrigs in place for decades and decades. I’d argue this is what it looks like to have another country finally being able to play on a level playing field.
After the auto industry intentionally killed public transport.
The fact that one of the most powerful monopolies in the world went bankrupt and was forced to be bailed out by taxpayers more than once should really be a disqualifier for any future endeavors.
you accidentally forget to pay ur credit card minimum for one month and you’re docked so many credit score points that you’re ineligible for being given a loan.
but we bail out these megacorps time and again and just keep letting them operate like nothing’s amiss
shit’s borked (intentionally, to favor those with means)
GM received more than $7 billions of subsidies and around $50 billions of “Federal loans, loan guarantees and bailout assistance”.
US auto manufacturers are getting their fair share of subsidies.
To be fair GM sold or closed a lot of its brands and foreign subsidiaries, and paid back the loan.
I fucking hate what the US auto industry has historically and is currently doing (making constantly bigger and more expensive trucks in a time we need smaller lighter EVs), but it’s actually a bit different from the SpaceX or EV credit subsidies and more of a low interest loan.
The US has far too many dispersed rural towns for public transit to cover. Yes we need more high speed rail and light rail, but we’re gonna need personal cars because of distances, weather and employment practices for a long time still. And there’s no reason they need to be 3 ton high speed blind spots.
When was the second bailout? Or the first if you’re referring to something older.
Is it a level playing field? In China workers rights are pretty non-existent and there’s no OSHA equivalent, at least not to the degree we have in the US. Then add in government subsidies, lower worker pay, reduced R&D costs because they pilfered the engineering from a US company, and you end up with a very lopsided market.
To be clear, I am in no way defending the US auto industry. They have little customer loyalty for a reason – low quality, overpriced, subscription dependent vehicles with terrible warranties, expensive service requirements, and invasive telemetry. They need more competition to force them to make more consumer-friendly decisions, but China is hardly a fair competitor.
In China workers rights are pretty non-existent and there’s no OSHA equivalent, at least not to the degree we have in the US
How much maternity leave d’you get in the US? Cause in China it’s a minimum of 90 days up to 180. And an extra 15~30 days of pat leave. Mandatory paid holiday? US: 0 China: 11. Sick leave? US: 0 China: months (at reduced rate). Vacation? US: 0, China: 1 to 3 weeks.
An employer that fails to allow an employee to take annual leave must pay that employee 300% of the employee’s daily wages for each unused vacation day
The work sfatey certainly remains an issue, like any developing country, but things are rapidly improving.
Efforts at work safety shall be oriented around people and reflect the principle of people first and life first, with top priority given to people’s life safety. The philosophy of safe development shall be adhered to and the principles of safety first, prevention as the main target as well as comprehensive administration shall be followed to forestall and resolve major safety risks at the source.
http://en.npc.gov.cn.cdurl.cn/2021-06/10/c_786248.htm
Things aren’t all roses in China, but y’all have to get off of your high horse when you know fuck all other than bland ass propaganda.
You can‘t compare a bailout with an aggressive offensive. Especially since western car makers and many other manufacturers outsourced to China in the process. There are few to no parallels to be drawn here. A more accurate, albeit tasteless comparison would be the China opium wars. Because that‘s essentially what they‘re aiming to do: Making us addicts to their product. They‘re selling us the stuff at a loss because they know we‘ll come back for more and before we know it we‘re completely hooked. It‘s the exact same thing they‘re doing with Temu and TikTok.
If something is being so heavily subsidized, the correct market response is to buy as much as possible, and resell once the prices ramp up.
Setting up tariffs and complaining about subsidies? 100% not the “free market” response. It’s cope.
True, even Milton Friedman (barf) said we should be thankful if someone wants to subsides our lives. Besides these market extremists say all government intervention is bound to fail, so they should have nothing to fear letting the BYDs in. The socialist subsidy of BYD will collapse and we don’t want the government distorting our market either.
This isn’t really my personal take, but i like using their own logic to reach a conclusion they will hate.
Are you trying to be funny or something? Used electric cars aren‘t exactly going up in price. What a bunch of nonsense. Talking about cope.
We have subsidized the big three many times, and they return nothing back. At this point, they should be nationalized.
You have a very simple way of looking at things and are part of the problem that is going on.
Your ignorance is showing. Tuck it in.
You tankies really have a way with words.
Our free market’s good, yours is the problem! Gotta read the fine print!
Free markets were always a terrible idea, the USA economic system was basically founded on principles of regulation of goods like tea, tobacco, and alcohol.
It’s not a free market.
BYD is heavily subsidized .
Pretty sure big oil and car companies have been bailed out by the US government in the past. Plus america designs most of its cities so that you need to own a car. Seems like both markets are equally “free” at the end of the day.
The majority shareholder at GM is the US treasury.
One of the majority holders at Stelantis is their workers’ union.
A one time loan which made money is hardly a subsidy by comparison to China right now. That’s an absurd comparison. Apples to oranges. Hell apples to baseballs.
There is also CAFE standards that made small, effecient vehicles require extremely high emissions standards while allowing looser standards for larger, less effecient vehicles. Effectively limiting foriegn market influence while increasing both the price and size of the average vehicle on American roads.
That’s not a competitive subsidy though. Anyone can and don take advantage of those emissions. The US does not have access to China subsidized materials or labor to compete in that market.
BYD could build here and take advantage of that.
The US actually heavily tariffs foreign-made vehicles that could skirt the CAFE requirements the way American trucks do. Light trucks suffer the Chicken Tax and can only be made in Canada, US or Mexico to bypass that. Been that way since the UAW boss asked LJB to do something about the German imports growing.
So build them here, like every other foreign auto maker.
They accomplish two completely different effects by two completely different mechanisms. The former being available to every manufacturer.
American car makers famously unsubsidized and holding up their own pants.
The oil industry is famously completely independent from government subsidy. Especially when it comes to setting urban development policy and planning transportation systems, these have no bearing at all oil demand and they also cost nothing.
Compared globally? Yeah mostly so.
What subsides do US cars get that other countries don’t have similar programs?
I don’t disagree with the criticisms of American cars – overpriced, uninspired, unreliable, over-engineered, etc. – but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week. Benefits that are common in the U.S., even in non-union shops, like retirement plans, PTO, worker’s comp, and overtime pay are rare. So, yeah, things can be made much cheaper if you are willing to feed your workforce into the grinder.
And that’s exactly what is coming to the US, since they think workers rights and unions are the problem.
LOL what workers rights do you clowns in the US have?
Not an American, but it’s worth saying that despite their labour market’s galling shortfalls, they don’t have a culture of 12 hour days for 6 days per week. Many work much less, and those who do pull those kinds of hours are typically tradesmen/women who make pretty good bank. Those types of jobs are being systematically eliminated by corporations, but I digress.
PSA @Bloomcole@lemmy.world is a troll.
PSA this InternetCitizen2 is a troll.
Askfor a source and this clown gives you this:
https://www.bbc.com/news/business-47934513
LOL
"12 hour days for 6 days per week. "
So you believe this baseless garbage statement that Chinese generally have these work hours? Right.
If you compare it to nonsense then the US is less bad, but those are not the facts.
retirement age 63 years old for men, 58 years for women, US: 67/66
paid holidays, not even a right, they maybe get 6, China:13
US: no paid sick days, China: they get 100% to 60%
The US is a joke.
So we should then let American oligarchs drive American workers to the same but slower? because that is what has happened so far
That is certainly their wet dream, now that they can’t easily just move their manufacturing to China and reap all of the benefits like they could 70s - 90s.
but to everyone saying “we should just compete”, do you realize the realities that Chinese workers experience? Have you heard of 996?
I get what you are saying, but sometimes I think we should in a way, or at least we should get republicans exposed to it, so they can live their hogwash ideas of free markets.
It won’t be them living the reality though, it will be their subordinates and employees. The same ones already being crushed to death by production metrics, stagnation of wages and inflation. The people involved in these decision making processes are too well shielded from the actual consequences, beyond maybe driving past and seeing the ruins of what used to be towns/cities/neighbourhoods destroyed by the free market and social policies.
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Have you heard of 996? It’s shorthand for a common work schedule in China: 9am to 9pm, 6 days a week
So a typical American teacher’s schedule?
Exactly, which is why I’m left scratching my head why the US wants to bring manufacturing back to the US. We’re much better of growing the well-paying jobs where our education systems can compete favorably vs bringing back jobs that compete with low-paying jobs…
LOL losers, your education is shit compared to Chinese.
You’ve got nothing to offer to the world.Hold on, in advanced education here in my area of the states, almost half the population of students in classes I see are of Chinese or Indian backgrounds and most are here on foreign visas.
If the education is so shit, why are there so many foreign students studying here and paying insane amounts of money to do so.
I’d think enrollment rates would be a severe lagging indicator of education quality. Institutions could likely coast on reputation for quite some time after education quality tanks. Inertia is powerful, and some could even knowingly decide to go to poor educational institutions just for the status it still gives among peers and in their community.
That said, I have no first hand experience with US higher education, and wouldn’t know what the quality really is, just saying that enrollment rates probably aren’t a great indicator of it.
True, I would argue though that after a certain amount of time, nobody even cares about the quality, it’s the university name on the degree that is truly important.
You can go anywhere on the planet even decades from now and say you’re from Harvard (take your pick) and you’ll be regarded as a knowledge god even if you were the last in the class to graduate.
Educational quality isn’t everything for getting into a good career, it’s the reputation, and that is what schools in the US (and a few abroad) have in spades.
‘Chinese or Indian backgrounds’ so not Chinese.
China leads in 95% of STEM and they’re only getting better and widening the gap.
The US has a handful of good Ivy league institutions (invariably using foreign professors and braindrain), the general level is mediocre at best.Yup and paying insane amounts of money to get in, too.
wow what an argument.
I bet you never went there, it showsApologies if English isnt your first language it’s called reading between the lines.
Ill draw it out for you: If people would pay that much (yes insane) money to go to “shit” and mediocre institutions here in the states, what does it say about the options they have locally?
where our education systems can compete favorably
LOL are you sure about that?
https://www.worldatlas.com/articles/the-highest-literacy-rates-in-the-world.html
China ranks higher than the USA in literacy rates
Sure, but the US has a lot of well-educated people (e.g. see the Education Index), as well as a lot of opportunities for well-educated people to get in-demand jobs that pay well.
Literacy rates are interesting, but they don’t translate to well-paying jobs like education attainment rates.
Sure, but the US has a lot of well-educated people (e.g. see the Education Index), as well as a lot of opportunities for well-educated people to get in-demand jobs that pay well.
There are more Indian Engineers in the USA than American ones… and Trump is destroying all of it
The way things are going for you, nobody with a half a choice would decide to migrate to the USA for work
I mean, what is the reason those Indian engineers chose the US over India?
and Trump is destroying all of it
The way things are going for you, nobody with a half a choice would decide to migrate to the USA for work
Adjust to your new reality pal
Right, and that’s completely brain-dead. We should be wanting to attract more talent, because more people able to take high-end jobs usually ends up creating more high-end jobs. We want more immigrant engineers, doctors, etc, because that encourages greater investment since the labor pool is deeper.
But no, we’ll instead block cheap imports and encourage more blue-collar work, and if we take that too far, we’ll end up in a similar situation as we did back in the Great Depression when demand just evaporates.
We should let developing countries develop and focus on what developed countries are better at: innovation. Attract top talent and keep investment dollars flowing so the R&D jobs stay.
Well yes, but actually no. BYD has quite of an advantage (also because China subsidies it), but american (and also European) companies have no incentive to actually design good quality products if BYD gets left out. At the same time CEO will try (and currently do it) to force us into working more and more for less money with less benefits while swimming in billions of dollars.
I’m not sure I see a connection between the working conditions, and the quality of the car. I don’t think anyone is advocating for adopting those bad conditions, but they also seem unrelated to the quality of design, and parts that go into it. That purely seems like a question of paying for good high-quality parts, and not skimping out on the design phase.
So then why do so many US companies have the CSRs in places overseas ? And manufacturing overseas ?
Why did so many US companies decide to utilize those working conditions for labor for US companies ?
I will strongly disagree with “over engineered”. Why a car company with all their money and bailouts that they can’t compete with Apple/Android on touchscreen features and responsiveness is the whole reason why Chinese cars will kill American car companies. Chinese cars support Android auto even when Google play services isn’t even available in China (last I checked).
Okay, I’ll concede that point to you. U.S. carmakers suck at software. And, even on the hardware, they’re resistant to change and slow to innovate.
Software is the answer to many of the mechanical issues too though. Granted, the physical engineering is definitely over engineered, but would they really need to have 6 different taillight frames when LEDs can be multicolor and just tuned with software for each market? I also see zero reason why manufacturers can’t start from a base and tweak for different market configurations. You also see car companies complain about complex regulation, but then in this day and age when east Asia can make you anything, that’s not an excuse I’m willing to be fed. I fucking hate Elmo like everyone else here, but why the hell is the Model Y the most popular car in the world. None of the other companies want to copy Tesla? They don’t want to compete? We’ve gotten to the point where it’s ludicrous that they’re not competing.
Only if they chose not to compete
Have you seen those byd cars on YouTube. Their mid price cars look like high end Mercedes over here. Meanwhile Ford and Chevy will sell you a $75000 pickup with all plastic interior.
None of the legacy companies are competing. Ever. The best we can hope for is rivian and other new players filling the gap.
I’ve test driven a few BYD models here in Australia. 50 thousand dollarydoos for an electric car that goes 400+km, can power your house in a blackout, has all the normal electric car performance (6 seconds to 100kmhr) and is chock full of user comforts and safety features.
There are a LOT of these getting around in Brisbane, and for good reason. I didn’t get one this time round, but by the time the lease expires on my Volvo EX30 in 4 years, I’ll be looking pretty hard at BYD. Especially if they get their new solid state batteries going by then.
The income stream would disappear, their operations would collapse and that would just be the end. There would not be another manufacturer that would flourish in the void left behind. Without the institutional know how and the existing structure, supply chain the current car manufacturing industry would never be able to restart if it ever stopped.
The social darwinism of the globalist free market is meant for crushing the spirit and bargaining power of individual workers, they are replaceable, disposable, interchangeable. General Motors and Ford aren’t.
I think that’s kind of the point. What the current case industry is doing is getting them smoked. They need to let go of the past the “institutional knowledge” that’s exactly why Ford and Chevy won’t compete with Chinese EV. Those are built from the ground up for the modern era with modern leadership modern supply chains building institutional knowledge that matters today and into the future. I would love nothing more than to drive a Ford EV. I am considering the f150 lightning but in comparison to things I see online it’s really far behind.
The problem is the world is transitioning to EVs, and burying your head in the sand won’t change that. Legacy manufacturers could be trying to find their place in the new world while they can, or they can stick with technology of the past, let someone else come to dominate the new technologies, and be left with a ever shrinking market until they disappear
Well they’d have to cut c-suite and shareholder’s cut because everything else that could be squeezed out has already been squeezed out, so the c-suite and shareholder will convert their money into the political power it takes to just block out the competition.
American manufacturing seems very incapable of change. If things worked this way for decades, why change it? Meanwhile the world moved on and they ask themselves why doesn’t anyone wanna buy american…?
You think Americans can’t change, just look at German Automakers. They are stuck in Perpetual denial. VW only moved electric because of the massive diesel scandal, otherwise they also would have been like every other car manufacturer.
Yes, but nobody ever expected Germany to be quick and adapt. Germany does not do that in general. It takes something that exists, perfects it, and then sells the perfection of the existing thing, ideally until really not a single person on the world needs it anymore. US on the other hand, has the reputation where innovation begins and does wonders. I am asking myself, where is the innovation in their autoindustry? Last thing was actually Tesla itself, when they started producing first electric cars.
It is the same situation, but the expectation is completely opposite.
Even if they changed how would they win?
They’re just too expensive to manufacture as compared to chinese ones.
They could try going for quality or features.
But instead they are only going for size, what 94% of the world does not care for or want. (this includes the 5% of Americans)
Dunno, seems like a global problem. European car companies are scared too. And they don’t make those big cars.
The only issue I see is that china is very hostile with how it deals with other countries, otherwise this is just the trend of how things work out. In the 80s, it was the japanese car industry.
They’ve got to keep their profit margins, or the CEO’s and shareholders might need to take a paycut.
Oh no! Anyway…
American car companies are focusing on their highest profit center, massive trucks. Milking that market for the short term.
…… regardless of their long term survival. It seems extremely short sighted.
American companies exist to maximize shareholder value. Remember that. There is no company, doing anything, for the better of the world or humanity. At least not as the primary motivation.
Expensive is not a problem it it’s followed by the appropriate quality. Also, US should be far more able to use tech to automate and make efficient, same as China can use cheap labour. In the end, a robot is a one-time fee, doesn’t get sick, and can work 24/7, easy and fast to learn new processes. Long term a robot will always outpeform a human.
I am union so don’t misunderstand the comment, but doesn’t BYD rely heavily on terribly paid non-union labor to reach it’s price advantage?
No, it relies on massive automation. Similary their solar industry etc
For example
It brings up a valid point. Assembly line manufacturing will soon require massive automation lines to remain profitable, and without massive government assistance in not just money, but education and training, these kinds of automation factories will likely never be fully realized here.
They don’t need any government assistance, they just need to take the millions they pay out to stakeholders, and invest them into automation. The money is there, just being handed out to a few people. Why should the government pay for something that sits on tons of cash but won’t use it?
If they are too expensive due to cost of labor, they can do, look at other comments, increased automation.
With automation China’s advantages over US are mostly in the bureaucratic efficiency area. Both in the government’s parts interacting with big companies and in the companies themselves.
US big companies are just too used to preferential treatment and solving market problems with lobbying, which worked when they were the spearhead of progress or something.
Tesla somehow manages to do well(at least prior to the nazi events). Still at a good price in Norway.
But all other manufacturers have dragged their feet with EVs, and that price cost of starting is large enough that they are in trouble. I’m not a huge fan of China, but they did the investment and are ahead exactly because of that (and crazy subsidies). Being left behind is their own fault imo, and I think that applies a lot to EU as well. Eg. WV.
So they dont care about making cars for the world market, they just want regulations to allow them to milk the american market…
As is tradition
Decoupling the market was them admitting their stuff is not as popular to the global market
Really, why is that? Is it maybe you are too greedy and make garbage? Is it? Hun?
Fuck executives.
That’s part of it, but it also helps that the Chinese government heavily subsidizes their auto industry.
Tbf so do we
Not nearly to the same amount.
Remember when China gave its biggest auto manufacturers $85 billion to keep them from going out of business when they made a bunch of bad financial decisions? Oh wait that was the US.
Anytime we bail out a company, I think we should nationalize it. We should just buy it from them.
I am pretty sure there is some financial fuckery going on with BYD. My parents own two, and they are very nice, but way under priced compared to every other EV manufacturer.
Can’t prove anything of course, but there is something odd going on when everyone else is 20-30k more expensive.
Hard to feel sorry for GM though, they suckled at our governments (Australia) teet for decades before giving up and leaving entirely. At least if BYD is being propped up we are at least getting good cheap cars from it.
Brazil shuts BYD factory site over ‘slavery’ conditions
From 2016 and still true today:
Chinese Government Subsidies Play Major Part In Electric Car Maker BYD’s Rise
Yeah, subsidies and other benefits from governments exist but China is going all in.
My only point of confusion is that a 20k loss on every car is insane. I’m guessing its a bit of BYD is subsidised somewhat, and everyone else is price gouging somewhat. No idea the ratio.
Also odd that other Chinese brands (really only tried MG) dont seem to have the same high quality, high pricing that suggests the same level of crazy subsidies.
Honestly, there is just so much fuckery going I just have no idea what is what.
Rivian is losing about $30k per vehicle, but with much lower production numbers.
Thats crazy. Are those public numbers from rivian?
Rivian’s financial statements provide insight into its per-unit losses, though calculating an exact figure requires analyzing multiple variables. The company’s cost of goods sold (COGS), which includes direct production expenses, regularly exceeds revenue, leading to negative gross margins. According to its latest SEC filings, Rivian reported a gross loss per vehicle of approximately $39,000 in 2023, though this figure fluctuates based on production volume and operational efficiencies.
Not exactly a number they put in a press release, but as a publicly traded company it is published quarterly.
The financial fuckery is that they’re very heavily subsidized by the CCP. It’s not sustainable.
I’d argue it is.
Just look how Amazon got where it is now: Sell way under market price, till local competition closed shop, then squeeze.
It’s unsustainable to keep prices lower than costs. The Amazon example didn’t have low prices forever.
Yes, I know. That’s why BYD is going to
then squeezethe customers once they are locked in.Thus, not sustainable, as I said.
What is sustainable in today’s economy?
Really, what Western corporation actually base their policies on sustainable growth?
Take your time. I’ll wait.
…
All of them that I know of. Which corporations do you see running unsustainable business models until they fold completely? Take your time, I’ll wait.
The point is that they eventually change their tactics. In this case, they’ll have to eventually increase their prices.
It worked for Wal-Mart
Which isn’t really a sustainable business model, but it’s quite successful
It didn’t work for Walmart the same way it didn’t work for Amazon
I think your muddying sustainable and successful. It definitely can be successful, but its not sustainable.
Its also high risk, especially if you can’t crank up the prices enough later
Sustainable implies that they can keep doing it forever without changing. Switching later means what they are doing is not sustainable. It might be successful, but its not sustainable.
There’s sustainable practices and sustainable businesses. The latter is what others are arguing. Undercutting competition to take over a market is a sustainable practice IF you can hold out long enough. I’d wager the country of China can hold out longer than General Motors.
But the business model has to change in order to survive. The company cannot undercut forever, it actually needs to change in order to survive. The business model of today is not sustainable. They may have a large warchest, they may be able to crush GM, but once they do, or the warchest runs out, the business model must change.
If you want to make the argument that their overall plan with the later change is sustainable, thats fine, but this current phase is not sustainable.
BYD is already facing scrutiny for running Evergrande like accounting, and a lot of political pressures from other Chinese manufacturers. The risk is that they collapse like Evergrande, and that they drag public debt into it. The CCP might prop them up, so it light be safe. A car is different from a book, because you need lifetime service for it. If they go under, you might lose access to parts.
You forgot the part where they raised prices on everything.
It might just be that, since BYD is serving such a large domestic market/population, that allows them to have cheaper cars? Something something, economies of scale. I’m no expert though.
There is a limit to that effect, though. And most observers agree that the state is subsidizing heavily.
While they are subsidised, the Chinese are really good at low cost manufacturing. It’s not the cheap labour anymore but factory automation and robotics. They really outclass anyone else.
the Chinese are really good at low cost manufacturing
They’re not “good” at it, they just have no minimum wage and no semblance of annoying things like worker protections or unions to be concerned with.
like worker protections or unions
That’s just patently false. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All-China_Federation_of_Trade_Unions
It is the largest trade union in the world with 302 million members in 1,713,000 primary trade union organizations.
Like all things in China, this is owned by the government, making it pointless.
They actually have a problem with workers or the lack of them and they have invested heavily in robotics. They aren’t the China of the 70s and 90s. It’s really something that we need to face up to if we want to compete but our political class isn’t really ready for that sort of reality. Years behind because of smugness.
We can’t compete with a country that pays their workers $1/hr without doing the same.
China doesn’t have a national minimum wage, but minimum wage is delegated to the local level there and definitely exists in every single province. Just echoing what the other user said, literally everything you said here is easily disprovable. https://www.china-briefing.com/news/minimum-wages-China/
Beijing has the highest hourly minimum wage (RMB 26.4/US$3.7 per hour)
Glad you learned something!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ttu55nEtC6o - How BYD overtook Tesla?
China subsidises industries it wants to dominate in, allowing them to sell for less than cost. It’s why the EU also tariffs Chinese cars.
Also for anything the big 3 make in the US, I believe they use union labor? Not sure if they did for Aussie market cars.
BYD? Wait until you see the Xiaomi car LOL!
Newsflash: American car manufacturer says “Our cars are crap and overpriced”
Michael Dunne is actually someone who worked in Chinese Automotive manufacturing. He’s the Chinese car manufacturer saying “Chinese cars are good and cheap.”
His word is basically meaningless.
The same thing happened in the 80s with Japan. The Japanese were no longer making crappy cars but small and very reliable, affordable cars. Detroit was still making rust buckets, obsessing over powerful engines with bodies that rotted out and defects galore. Detroit got beaten up badly (Chrysler had to get a gov bailout) until they cleaned up their act and improved their products. Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
https://imprimis.hillsdale.edu/how-detroits-automakers-went-from-kings-of-the-road-to-roadkill/
We still don’t let in the small pickups the rest of the world enjoys.
defects galore
A friend of mine from high school attended the GM Institute and became an engineer for them. One of his first projects was on a team that bought a Lexus and an Infiniti when they first came on the market and took them apart to see how many production defects they had. He said a typical American car at the time (and this was in the '90s after quality had rebounded somewhat from its disastrous nadir) had 300-400 defects. The Infiniti they took apart had 2. The Lexus had 0.
Protecting Detroit from competition would’ve just saddled US consumers with decades more of crappy, overpriced, low quality, cars.
And it did. Japanese companies maintained a solid portion of the market in the US, a notable lead in quality, and many consumers no longer willing to waste money on crappy overpriced low quality cars from American companies. American cars were forced to get better and they’re better off for it, but they resisted the entire time, just like today.
Did Japan back then pay their assembly line workers the equivalent of $5k USD/year (in today’s dollars) and have nearly no worker protections? Not a rhetorical question; I just don’t know. Seems like Japan had a better standard of living back then compared to Chinese workers now, so I would guess their workers were compensated and treated better.
Not defending US auto corps (or any corp for that matter). The regulatory capture in the US is insane, and workers aren’t treated as well as most of the rest of the first world.
5K/year isn’t exactly poverty when rent is <200, phone data is 20, and you can get pic for 1.50 USD. I too would like them to be treated better, but I dont know if their overall situation is worse than the average american worker making 50K, but spending 24K on rent, 12K on car payments, and 16USD if they eat out.
Japan back then had (and still has) an interesting socioeconomic system, a bit similar to samurai clans went cartels, where workers are supposed to work all their life in one place (or close to that), don’t squeal about worker rights and such, but be covered by lots of company-provided social nets and guarantees.
Japan used state capitalism to promote it’s auto industry and other key sectors to sustain strong growth. America’s weakened billionaire owned government system is just being strip mined into the ground. We won’t be able to compete in an economy that’s only product is wealth extraction because of our massive corruption.
Back then American industries were just complacent due to insufficient competition, and Japan’s industrial development was a bit of a miracle (that “living in year 2000 since 1980s” joke).
I would kill for a small electric truck… Telo is calling my name, but they don’t have a functioning product yet.
Right there with you on small trucks, the kid and I have been drooling over the Slate even if it is Bezos. I drive a '98 Ranger, and we’ve been kicking around the idea of a Ranger electric conversion.
Maybe the USA should heavily invest in the industry of the USA, just like China does, in order to keep up? No, then USian companies would have oversight & have to meet expectations, and we all know that they wouldn’t want that.
That would require companies roll profits back into development and their employees instead of pocketing it all, schemes like stock buybacks and wall st traders.
I hate that the US is like this. People would EASILY pay more for American if the quality was there. But ffs they don’t even try anymore. They just make slop and expect us to pay more for it.
Which sucks because I did use to think that “Made in the USA” meant better quality.
Were you born in 1960 or something? That hasn’t been true for 50+ years
Also labor price is unmatched. Nobody would work for the wage they give to children in China, so you can’t really go that much cheaper while not sacrificing safety.
Not saying Chinese cars are that well made.
They’re being pretty ruthless about grabbing all the world’s resources to make them as well.
No the rest of the world has been sleeping when China silently bought all the mines and harbors in the past decades.
China is performing a new colonialism. Exploiting poor countries for their cheap resources.
While the rest of the world is trying to steer away from it because it is so horrible. So please, don’t praise China for it.
You don’t understand colonialism much. They aren’t taking anything by force like the rest of the west did for centuries.
They are doing business, there is a difference.
If our CEOs and business leaders are supposedly the world’s best, why didn’t they spent their capital shutting China down instead of their lavish lifestyles and payouts for their wealthy stockholders? I guess they aren’t as good at running businesses as they claim to be.
When the only goal by law is maximize profits, the motivation tends to favor minimizing cost. Change the rules, and enforce a new set of values. Only then will the situation improve.
That and the fact that these people aren’t patriots. They’re looters. They don’t believe in America per se. They believe in the economic system that advantages them and disadvantages others. It’s just that simple. America is no longer a land of opportunity. Perpetual poverty is their goal. Keeping people down is the point.
I have to concede that i believe you might be right about that, sadly.
That’s true, but we could subsidize the cost of labor too. People make a living wage, but the company pays less than that because government covers the difference.
China has compulsory education for children just like America. There’s no child labor in China.
They pay adult workers less in China, but these yuan has 7x buying power than the dollar in China
That’s what Chinese propagandists want you to think, there are way more people living in (borderline) poverty (per capita) than in the US.
Social media is being fed with a slice of mainland China, but anything beyond that is people struggling to keep ends meet.
Very few children work in china right now, Chinese workers even have 5 days of vacation a year by law.
That’s 5 more than the US…
There were probably more children working on farms in the US than in china, and I remember something about Florida wanting to reinstate child labour again?
Yes, there may not be child labor. But in places we cannot see, there are still black industry chains. A brick factory was exposed some time ago. They let some people with low IQ or disabilities work. They were not given masks, and the air was full of dust. They may work more than ten hours a day or even more. What is the difference between this and slavery? I just want to give this example to illustrate that there are still many black-hearted factories in society, and there is also the possibility of employing child labor. In China, young people who have not studied will choose to work in factories, but they must be at least 16 years old. If they are younger, they will not be hired. Back to the issue of BYD, although we are proud that it can be recognized by the world as a Chinese brand, and many people in China also buy it. But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc. Someone exposed the chat records within the company. We are all ordinary people. We just want to fight for our rights. Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Yes but they are trying to better themselves, it’s a slow process, but there is progress. And they came a long way since the 70’s.
Countries like America are going backwards. At this rate the USA is a worse country for the working class than China in 20 years, if not already.
I agree with this. No country has ever been like China, which has grown from the founding of the People’s Republic of China in 1949 to the world’s second largest economy. This is all the joint efforts of the people and the government. But we are not like our parents’ generation, who were satisfied even with low salaries, and always had a smile on their faces, often saying that they were working to build a new China. We are in our twenties now, but our bodies are already in our thirties or forties. We stay up late every day and have to work overtime, and we don’t like working. We refuse to work overtime for any reason, work in bad weather, and give ourselves very low salaries. This is not for the motherland but for the capitalists who seek personal gain.
We still have a question, why do we work so hard when we have achieved what we have now? We envy people in Europe, who have easy work. Every time we take a holiday, we have to make up for it with more working days. You often say that Chinese people are hardworking, but the younger generation does not want to suffer unnecessary hardships. We realize that we come to this world to enjoy life, not to spend the best decades of our lives working.
I think it’s about being content with what you have. Not always wanting more and bigger and better. I have a comfortable salary, nothing too much, loads of people earn way more, but i can pay my mortgage and all other costs, don’t have to worry about losing my job. And still have enough money left to spend on nice things.
I don’t have to save up loads of money for medical bills or other unfortunate events. I can just easily live my life.
That having said I’m still fed up with the daily grind, so I’m selling the house now to retire early somewhere in Spain or Italy, hopefully going off grid somewhere in the mountains enjoying peace and quiet and nature, embracing my inner hermit.
I also want to save money to buy a house in our village. Most of us came to the city from the countryside, but I don’t have enough money. I don’t think I am not ungrateful, but the salary of the company is indeed lower than the industry average. That’s why I think so. Your life seems wonderful — I truly wish you all the best.
But recently there have been some news that they blindly work overtime within the company, and have meetings after get off work, etc.
Lol, managers are Tesla are contracted for 80hr work weeks…
Even if it is a big company, as long as it exploits people, we must oppose it.
Agreed! Fuck em all!
This is the slavery they are refrencing i think.
BYD did get caught using slave labor.
https://apnews.com/article/brazil-slave-labor-china-car-factory-byd-991c5670eefdd564fd465648b77b3869
Like we don’t have child labor here in the good ol’ USA.
Good. Fuckem. They make shitty, oversized trucks that are a danger to pedestrians and people who drive reasonably sized cars anyway.
My boss in the UK got one. In bright red. It looks like he’s driving a fucking fire engine.
My old boss was a huge man who went around in a little yellow convertible. We called him Noddy.
May I suggest calling him Fireman Sam?
The Chinese too know how to make unnecessary large cars, unfortunately.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Look no further than Kei trucks being illegal.
Our overengineered, over priced, unnecessarily complicated crap just can’t compete with simple transport vehicles because they aren’t made as a tool to serve a purpose. Everyone wants to make a Corolla into a Cadillac and sell it for Cadillac prices.
Hmmm. I think US cars can absolutely compete. Here is the problem. Foreign manufacturers make cars that people want to buy. American manufacturers make cars that they want to sell. These two things are not the same.
I want Ford Escorts, Geo Metros, VW Rabbits. I want a small, uncomplicated, economy shitbox. A small cheap car that my broke ass can fix when it breaks. And no car company that makes cars in this country makes that anymore.
Right? The only thing on the market for EVs in the US right now is “luxury” crossovers and trucks. What people really want is an electric civic hatchback.
Mourning the loss of the Saturn in the world.
Makes me think of Dell.
Domestic US cars can’t compete with foreign cars. We’ve known that forever. Or at least since the 90s.
Growing up in the 90s in Wisconsin, all the conservatives around me always talked shit about foreign cars.
I can’t comprehend how they justified it. But I also knew nothing about cars.
It was only back in ~2016 that I realized how much building a car is similar to building a computer. Supply chains, common parts, designs made to fit common “cases”. Etc etc.
