it’s progressive to wage war right?
No it’s not. Well, unless it’s an anti-fascist war. But as much as Biden loves to say he’s just like FDR, this war is no WW2.
Russia is waging war. The US wants to support a free democratic country that borders NATO over a fascist invading country that’s an adversary of NATO.
Ukraine banned the largest opposition party in the legislature. How does that make it a free and democratic country? The truth is it’s no more free and no more democratic than Russia.
Why would US also support Turkey, Egypt, Israel or other dictatorship around the world?
Those are all democracies/republics, at least on paper.
Out of the numerous countries that the USA has invaded, couped, meddled in or intervened in, which ones have become free and democratic enough to your liking?
The terrible actions of the US don’t justify russia’s genocide
Germany
I was hoping more of a post WW2 example
Afghanistan was democratic during US occupation. Unfortunately, that was overthrown by the taliban when the US pulled out.
Jesus Christ
It’s true. Whether you agree with the actions of the US abroad or not, the US did legitimately try to install a free and fair democratic government in Afghanistan. And it was in place for 20 years - https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_in_Afghanistan.
So Ukraine should become permanently occupied by America?
You do know there are other options then occupied by russia or america right?
Your own source contradicts your claims:
Prior to the 2021 overthrow of the government by the Taliban, Afghanistan had been consistently ranked as a below-average democracy by U.S.-based non-governmental organization Freedom House. According to their yearly survey Freedom in the World, Afghanistan scored only 27 points in 2019 to 2021 on a 100-point scale, falling in the category of “not free countries.”
In 2010, a report published by the United Nations Office on Drugs and Crime indicated that bribery consumed approximately 23% of the GDP of Afghanistan.[8] This corruption was present in the highest levels of government, with the New Kabul Bank scandal in which a small number of political elites, including cabinet ministers, had embezzled nearly $1 billion through fraudulent loan schemes.[9][10]
While the first presidential election of the republic in 2004 was relatively peaceful, the following 2009 presidential election was hampered by significant flaws, including a lack of security, low voter turnout, and widespread electoral fraud.[11]
All this is after being chartiable and not including the 20% voter turnout in 2021 since that was the tail end of that epoch.
But I bet you’ll blame all these shortcomings on the Afghans.
Man, this was a great comment until the last sentence. . .
Oof, that’ll teach me to briefly skim a source before posting. I wasn’t going to blame anyone, because I clearly don’t know enough about the situation. But thanks for putting words in my mouth.
Lol. Where in the US state dept do you work? Imperialist balogne.
“imperialism is when America does things, and the more American it is the more imperialismer it is”
Other countries can be imperialist too. Like Russia, when it invades its neighbours to annex their territory. Stop defending imperialism. A thing does not automatically become anti-imperialist if the USA doesn’t like it.
Ad hominem fallacy
Ad hominem fallacy
I’m not embarrassed I had to look it up, but I’m glad I did!
Ad hominem (Latin for ‘to the person’), short for argumentum ad hominem, is a term that refers to several types of arguments, most of which are fallacious. Typically this term refers to a rhetorical strategy where the speaker attacks the character, motive, or some other attribute of the person making an argument rather than attacking the substance of the argument itself. This avoids genuine debate by creating a diversion to some irrelevant but often highly charged issue. The most common form of this fallacy is “A makes a claim x, B asserts that A holds a property that is unwelcome, and hence B concludes that argument x is wrong”.
It’s bologna, yah rusky
I care. You’re McCarthyist bullshit is wearing thin. Most of the US population don’t want the US proxy war. Keep trying.
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Keep the propaganda coming, troll. Your comments are shallow and not representative of reality.
The reality that the major media corporations and military industrial complex want to to be represented? Correct, they don’t represent that.
cite yah sources and I’ll read into it. I view it as providing aid to a foreign population being invaded by a direct adversary of the people of the United States. The Ukrainian people need saving from Putin’s senseless and ultimately fruitless invasion of their homes. Russians should be embarrassed for how much pain they’ve inflicted, as well as how little they’ve accomplished in this pointless errand to fulfill Putin’s selfish dying wish.
Why don’t you have a vote on it then?
That’s not how representative democracies work. There’s no way for a commoner to vote on it.
Fair point, a referendum then. (also please fix your democracy America, its getting weird)
It certainly can be.
Putin wouldn’t be the first guy I’d call “progressive,” if that’s what you’re getting at
the warmongers cheering on the military industrial complex while calling themselves progressives
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It’s honorable to help a sovereign nation protect itself against a power-hungry dictator
It’s honorable to help a sovereign nation protect itself against a power-hungry dictator
I agree, which is why it’s so important to back the Donetsk and Lugansk People’s Republics against the undemocratic power-hungry dictator Zelensky.
Yes it’s honorable to wage a proxy war and use the lives of people thousands of miles away to further your own hegemony across the globe.
That’s what you think is going on? The US asked putin to invade? Oh yea it was literally the opposite, with Biden begging Putin not to invade for weeks before he decided to do it anyway, yet here you are blaming the US for the suffering russia is inflicting on millions of innocent people
Spoken like someone who has not been paying attention to what has gone on in the region since 2014.
Spoken like someone who has not been paying attention to what has gone on in the US since 2016.
There’s no proxy war. You’re dehumanizing Ukrainians by denying their agency
Dude we were denying their agency in 2014 when we were helping install their new pro-EU government
No, stating that a popular revolt against a corrupt leader is the result of our actions is denying their agency
I never claimed the revolt itself was a result of their actions, I claimed that we were actively involved in installing their new government, which we were.
You’re either just gas lighting or just uneducated but it doesn’t matter. You’re full of balogne.
It’s bologna, yah tankie
Think one of those tanks ran over his brain, because there’s clearly no functional gray matter in that skull of his.
That’s sounds suspiciously like the bologna of the bourgeoisie.
Incorrect on all counts!
Healthcare please
Or anything to help with inflation, etc.
That’s what the wage suppression is for. It’s in the Fed notes.
More trains please
Oh hey, it’s a Parenti quote moment.
And when Kenneth Boulding gets up and he says—an economist, and you can see what—you can see what—you can see, when you get Britain people like Kenneth Boulding speaking so naïvely, you can see the troubles you get into, the swamps you go into, the baby talk—silliness you get into when you think without Marx, when you think without class analysis—and Kenneth Boulding says, one of America’s leading economists, he says, “Empire is irrational because it costs more than what we get out of it,” “the British—it costed them more in India than what they got out of it,” “the American investment in the Philippines is only about three-and-a-half billion dollars, but we had to give them about six billion dollars in aid,” “it costs us more than what we get out of it,” and that’s when you think without a class analysis, because as we know—as you’re going to know before the evening’s over— that it’s very profitable, because the people who have the three billion dollar investment aren’t the same ones as the people who pay the six billion.
How about 40 billion to support getting some bitches… on a Single Payer Healthcare program.
More money being pissed away on Ukraine? Wow. That Zalensky guy must have photos of a naked Biden with some White House aide or whatever. This is a joke and a massive abuse of US taxpayer money. When does this end? How is the US benefitting from this? Oh, we aren’t at all. Hmmm. I wonder if there is something behind the scenes going on here? Like some other motive? I mean, it’s the Biden’s…… sort of a shady track record.
And don’t gimme a bunch of whataboutisms either. Don’t care. This Ukraine thing is a farce. Enough. We’re done.
How is the US benefitting from this?
According to the most cliche liberal line: the US is killing Russia’s soldiers with no loss of American blood and putting old equipment to good use while bolstering domestic military industrial complex to acquire new stockpiles.
It’s a great return of investment.
No, workers staying healthy through preventative care is not a “return on investment.” Stop talking about healthcare.
The high energy prices mean its no longer profitable to run heavy industries in europe. So the us is cannibalizing some of german industry. Thats the profit the us gets.
When does this end?
When Russia is defeated.
How is the US benefitting from this?
It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you. This has a chilling effect on authoritarians, making them refrain from this kind of activity. This improves global security, which results in better trade, which improves the global economy. The US being on the globe benefits from this.
Also, do you like how much you’re paying for groceries? Could it be this war is causing a disruption in grain supply? You know that stuff that goes into bread, the feed that cows eat, etc? Yeah, I know people on the internet are all blaming their own governments (in basically every country, LOL) for high grocery prices, because no one wants to say that’s it’s Putin. Sure there is probably some assholes jacking up the prices more than necessary, but do you think all the corporations and all of the governments got together and decided to do this? Nope the inflation, the high grocery prices, it’s because of Putin’s bullshit.
Not to mention all of the influence campaigns Russia is running on the internet. You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries. Taking down Putin will lessen that buillshit. I say lessen because after seeing Russia’s success other countries like China are getting in on that game now too. But one asshole at a time.
It’s sending a message to authoritarians. Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you
Help i fucked up, I accidentally sent the stuff to the Saudis not the Yemenis who being invaded.
And people were worried when CatholicSocialist got banned that we wouldn’t hook any more whales
We should keep this one around, he’s kinda funny, when he’s not dropping the epic chungus racism one-liners
I just noticed that this is an away game lol
Not really our call here if they stick around or not
The posters crusades
yeah its definitely putin’s fault everything is more expensive and not corporate greedy price-gouging. remember, everything is putin’s fault! the west is perfect!
Snowball ruined the windmill!
You know where you’re constantly being influenced by the internet towards burning down the capital of your own country? That’s a disinformation campaign designed to destabilize NATO countries.
Seeing how you NAFO psychos behave has actually completely convinced me that the only path forward is to burn DC (and Langley) to the ground and that NATO must be dismantled if there’s ever going to be lasting peace. Congratulations.
Not Langley! That’s where I live! LOL
A little secret, don’t tell anyone… I’m a member of NAFO because I bought some stickers from their website. Everything else you got going on is just paranoid delusions that you came to by reading too much glavset propaganda on the internet.
Comical levels of projection from the person who is incapable of anything beyond regurgitating propaganda you’d find on CNN
Imagine being an unironic NAFO loser.
Don’t invade countries or we’ll send the other country stuff to make it go badly for you
Man I wish someone sent that message to the US before they invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, carpet bombed Syria and Libya, and funded various forms of jihadist militant groups for the past 20+ years.
There’s exactly one county that’s been toppling democracies and bankrolling dictators for almost a 100 years and it’s
baby.
We’re giving Ukraine our table scraps that are too nice to toss, but too expensive to keep. They’re using them to defeat a long-standing geopolitical foe at no costs to American lives.
Ukraine doesn’t need dirt to get our help, this is the best money the US has spent since Lend-Lease.
It’s kind of funny seeing these kind of comments on Lemmy and playing the “alt-right or tankie” game before you see someones instance.
What we as the west get from helping Ukriane, is soft power in that it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country, and while we might not start WW3 over it, we will support them to make it hard as possible for you.
You could say the same thing but with putin sending the message and it would be more acurate.
that it sends a message to other dictators
What message is America sending to the dictators that we bankroll while they perform genocide using US equipment and training?
Those are the other dictators. There’s also our dictators - those are the good ones!
it sends a message to other dictators around the world that we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country,
You mean like the collective west did to Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya? Who’s supposed to send the message to our dictators when it’s time to stop?
Yeah we’ve really cultivated a lot of prestiege on this one, the west definitely hasn’t absolutely embarrassed itself and unified large swathes of the world against it. And hey, it only took like three rounds of sabotaged peace talks and and multiple generations of Ukranians fed into a big novelty Northrop-Grumman branded meat grinder.
It’s kind of funny seeing these kind of comments on Lemmy and playing the “alt-right or tankie” game before you see someones instance.
huh, i see comments like yours and i think “lib moron” and then i don’t give it another thought.
we won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country,
only WE plough into other countries USA! USA! USA!
This is giving “the UN is an effective international governance body” energy.
Only white countries though, when it comes to black people and brown people you don’t give a rats ass, there’s still dictators all over the world that none of you even give a s*** about
*Except if that country is Palestine. They can get ploughed
No the message to other dictators is ‘be useful to us, or else’
yeah exactly
This would be a great emoji
Probably a two part emoji or it’s too small.
For some people, everything has to be a conspiracy. Logical, easily verifiable reasons for things can’t possibly be the truth to them. Especially if it comes from the opposing political party, it is automatically false to them. Even if verifiable.
Honestly I wasn’t sure of the benefit either, but your response makes so much sense. I don’t know why there always has to be conspiracies for obvious stuff.
Maybe you should stop plowing into other countries yourselves, you bloodthirsty psychos.
The UK hasn’t invaded anywhere in almost two decades, what are you waffling about.
How dare you call me a murderer? I haven’t killed anyone in almost two years!
Except that in this case they are saying that while killing someone.
AKSHULLY right now I’m just repeatedly stabbing a man. We can’t know for certain if he’s actually dead until I’m done.
Average neoliberal Pirate. Your bloodthirsty country should return all the gold and art that was stolen from all around the world.
PD: Read about neocolonialism.
Yeah neocolonialism the thing Russia is attempting right now. If you oppose neocolonialism you should oppose Russia.
Or do you just hate western countries for fashy past grievances reasons?
Neocolonialism understander has logged on
Holy shit at least look the fucking word up in a dictionary before you try to turn it around on someone else you buffoon
Even if you were going to butcher the term ‘colonialism’ THAT’S the one that’s relevant if a country is being occupied militarily.
WHY DO YOU SPEAK AT ALL. YOU NEED SO MUCH READING AND LISTENING BEFORE YOU STOP SPEAKING NONSENSE. INVESTIGATE WHAT YOU SAY AAAAAAAA
Hey, Space Neoliberalist. If you ever touch some real theory (instead of reading Harry Potter and The Washington Post), like Lenin. You would know that this is an inter-capitalist conflict (you know what that means?). If you think that USA is helping in good faith (and not in the interest of colonialism exploitation in the long run), you are an idiot.
“fashy past grievances reasons”
So denouncing the crimes of the west is fascist now?
-“Hey USA shouldn’t have supported dictatorships in Latin America with their Plan Cóndor, or helped in the coup against the democratic elected Salvador Allende. Or dropped two atomic bombs in two civilian cities, or having the highest incarcerated population doing slave labor, or burn with napalm villages, or puting children in cages in the border, or….”. I could be all night talking about USA crimes. A whole month with the Nato members crimes.
-”Shut up fascist.”
Is always projetion with you liberals. Scrath a liberal, and a bloodthirsty nafo fascist bleeds.
The problem with “both sides” arguments is you tacitly admitting your side is wrong when you do that.
Yeah sure the US shouldn’t have done those things in the past. But these are past grievances, which is the cornerstone of fascist thinking. “Our present day horrible actions are justified because of the horrible things others have done in the past!”
Whatever US and any other NATO members did wrong in the past doesn’t make what Russia is doing today right.
Also, why should Ukrainians suffer so that Russia can expand their empire?
I have no doubt about the ability of fascists to go on and on about past grievances. But what grievance do you have with Ukraine specifically?
Nah, I’m good cheers.
Absolute brain worms claiming this as a talking point
We were literally in Libya bombing civilians and training al quaeda cells just 12 years ago
They were in Afghanistan until 2014
we as the west
Have you heard of scotland/wales/northern ireland?
Scotland were willing participants in an act of union what formed Britain you absolute melt.
Noticing you didn’t defend the other two instances
Don’t worry, it’s not like half the people in Scotland want to leave the UK. That could never possibly happen! Imagine! Voting to leave a huge unpopular imperialist neoliberal organization! Utterly preposterous! Could never happen in a million years!
One that they were happily part of for several hundred years don’t forgot. They had a referendum and decided to stay, you can’t keep running them every few years until you get the result you like. Besides Scotland leaving the UK and the resulting chaos of negotiations will make Brexit look like a walk in the park, the SNP aren’t honest with their voters about that.
Yeah, invasions are out of fashion. All the West does is make a country’s development contingent on their willingness to let the West exploit their natural resources and labor and then cut said development if they fund a social program or coup them if the “locals” are uncooperative. All after gutting these countries for hundreds of years via colonialism. You don’t need to do an invasion when you can just put a noose around the neck of a country.
Oh and the West still does invasions look at Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, and Syria. And UK special forces have been in Syria, the Sudan, Nigeria, and others as recently as last year.
Tell that to Yemen.
Also ‘we haven’t invaded anywhere in the very immediate past (though the genocidal war criminals who perpetrated our last invasion are still important and celebrated public figures)’ is a pretty fucking weak justification from a country insisting on being world police.
won’t just sit back and let them plough into another country
Do you think the west has a genuine interest in consistently enforcing this or do you just not care when people you like do it?
That’s fine but why are they banning socialist parties, integrating fascist paramilitaries into the army, and privatizing land? That all seems a little familiar.
Supporting free and democratic Ukraine is preferable to letting fascist Russia become neighbors with NATO.
I agree wholeheartedly with supporting Ukraine, but Russia has had a land border with NATO for twenty years at this point. They just pretend they don’t so that they can cry “NATO expansionism!”
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Geesh. Ain’t that the truth?
Sadly yes, the US benefits WE don’t
Buy stocks and join the cynic train.
Being a communist and a war profiteer are incompatible
But what if I want dead US troops?
We all do
Be the change you want to see in the world
How is the US benefitting from this?
well it’s making europe reliant on US energy, for one (with all the ramifications that entails)
And getting NATO to ‘pay their fair share’
to Northrop on top of it
Go touch yourself to a printout of shirtless Putin on a horse. Jesus.
Right, because there isn’t possibly any other motives here or objectives. Like the circus guys said: There’s. Sucker born every minute.
Ok what rational motive is there for supporting Putin? I’ll wait.
The fact you can’t see that you’re the sucker isn’t a surprise to anyone but you. Stop watching fox news, it’s rotting your brain.
The fact that you’re assuming this person is a Fox “News” consumer is emblematic of the overall media’s coverage of the war in Ukraine. A person can be anti-war and still part of the left. But not according to you, or others who immediately jump to things like, “go back to licking Putins boot, watching Fox News, etc.” You are shutting down any sort of constructive conversation.
The media has made the war in Ukraine a moral imperative by making it democratic Ukraine vs authoritarian Russia. War makes everything black and white. So it becomes impossible to say something like, “Russia’s invasion of Ukraine is wrong” while also saying “The US should not support Ukraine with weapons.”
I am anti-war. I do not think the US should support Ukraine with weapons. To me, I am extremely skeptical of the simplistic idea that we are aiding democracy and staunching authoritarianism. I think that kind of of rhetoric pervaded the conflicts in the Middle East, and I think in those cases, it was more accepted by the public that the US was acting in a more imperialistic manner. I think that fits closer to the mark here, too.
For one thing, the US was directly involved in Ukraine’s revolution in 2014, trying to position people in power who had a more EU friendly demeanor. And they helped expand NATO bases closer to Russian borders. These two things, while they certainly do not justify Russia’s invasion, I’m sure made them feel threatened. Now, I don’t have much historical knowledge of Ukraine or Russia, but certainly they’ve had more than just a geographic relationship over the past century or so. If Russia was involved in a Mexican revolution, trying to make them friendlier to Russia rather than the US, I’m sure the US would have a problem with that. Still, the US would not be justified in invading Mexico, as Russia is not justified in invading the Ukraine. This is just to point out the same type of meddling that the US does all across the globe in the name of “democracy” or “free market capitalism”, we were doing here, too.
I think it’s doubtful that this is all purely in the name of democracy. After all, look at what is happening to Palestine. They are a country occupied by the authoritarian state of Israel, and we do nothing. So, to me, there are other factors at play in Ukraine. One, I think, is that war is profitable. “Defense” companies like Raytheon and BAE actually have an interest in perpetuating war, as it brings in profits. So big firms are going to support giant aid packages, as it means they’re going to get business.
Another, I think, is that war is politically profitable. When you can get your party to demonize an individual or country and unite around the noble war effort, it’s just another issue you’ve manufactured to get their vote.
Anyways. I just don’t buy that this war is about democracy or any higher moral value. I think it’s about money, to be honest, and politics. Mostly money. It’s a proxy war between the US and Russia and I think the media has pushed the narrative that it is a morally imperative war between Ukraine and Russia because it is financially interested in perpetuating the conflict. I don’t think the US has an interest in actually ending the war.
And overall, I just think war is one of the greatest evils, and I will almost never support it. Real people are dying for fucking what? If that makes me a Fox News watcher, or conservative, or Putin lover, or whatever name you want to sling my way, I guess so be it. It’s dumb, but so be it.
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why because I’d like to hear your viewpoint so that I can adjust mine appropriately. I’m not interested in name-calling, but an actual conversation about this topic would be cool.
Your entire rant boils down to “I disagree with Russia’s invasion, but since they did it anyway they should have no consequences, even when they commit genocide”. A conversation isn’t required to counter this dogshit position.
Well, I actually didn’t say any of that, but thanks for stripping any nuance from what I said, creating a strawman, and then attacking that, instead.
No amount of nuance will make your core position tenable to those that think Ukraine deserves outside (e.g. NATO) support to protect them from the Russian invaders. You simply don’t think Ukraine deserves support, condemning them to genocide. Everything else you said is weird posturing to try and disguise your actual point. It’s not our first rodeo, we can all see right through this.
Edit: if you’re downvoting me without a rebuttal, you’re part of the problem that I’m referring to – a complete dismissal of dissenting opinion on the war. If you disagree with what I’ve said, please comment why
People on the internet don’t owe you a debate.
Especially when the prompt is a somewhat sanctimonious effort-dump sealioning “we should let Russia have Ukraine” as if its a reasonable liberal imperative, all in response to a stupid one-liner.
Thank you for the insults, I guess the point of my effort dump is moreso that I dont think it’s really as black and white as people make it, I think it deserves some nuance. Which is a little ironic because you summed the whole thing up in six words! Haha
But no, I don’t think it’s very unreasonable to be against a war. You do? I do not support Russia. But I don’t think the US should be sending military aid to Ukraine.
Edit: or, I mean against this war
When you stop watching The View, MSNBC & The Rachel Madcow show, Ill consider dumping Fox News. :).
I already don’t watch any of that drivel so you got yourself a deal buddy. You just go ahead and let me know when you want to uphold your end and dump fox news.
My end? Did we make some sort of pact? Please. Face it: everyone has their favorite sources for stuff and it’s always based on what they agree with. You’re not above this.
You said you’d consider dumping fox news when I stopped watching the programs you mentioned. That sounded like a pact to me.
The problem with all news media these days is it no longer gives you the facts without it also telling you how you should feel about the facts based on their particular biases. If you only look to the sources that confirm your bias you’re not getting properly informed on the issues, you’re simply existing in an echo chamber having your views reaffirmed by the others that share them without ever hearing or considering there might be more to the story.
I never claimed to be above being affected by this myself, but I am consciously aware of how serious a problem it is. I do the best I’m able to see all sides of an issue, from multiple sources, the more non-biased the better (though this is getting increasingly more difficult), and then I make up my own mind as to what I think without allowing the media to tell me how I should feel.
Fox news is one of the worst sources for biased news as it is the only news network that was started with the agenda of specifically appealing towards a conservative audience. They have even won defamation lawsuits by arguing their shows are performances and shouldn’t be taken as fact. They’ve always cared more about ratings than the truth… MSNBC is a close second on spewing drivel catering to liberals. I wouldn’t trust anything either of them say without first doing some independent research on my own.
This is the best summary I could come up with:
A political divide on the issue has steadily grown, with the Republican-led House facing enormous pressure to demonstrate support for the party’s leader, Donald Trump, who has been very skeptical of the war.
As a supplemental request, the package the White House is sending to Congress falls outside the budget caps both parties agreed to as part of the debt ceiling showdown earlier this year.
“I look forward to carefully reviewing the Administration’s request to make sure it is necessary and appropriate,” McConnell said in a statement, “to keep America safe, secure our borders, support our allies, and help communities rebuild after disasters.”
Sen. Marco Rubio, R-Fla., released a statement urging Congress to swiftly pass critical funding for disaster relief programs while separately considering military aid for Ukraine.
Members of Congress have repeatedly pressed Defense Department leaders on how closely the U.S. is tracking its aid to Ukraine to ensure that it is not subject to fraud or ending up in the wrong hands.
Now, though, House Speaker McCarthy is facing pressure to impeach Biden over unproven claims of financial misconduct and it’s not clear whether a quick show of support for Ukraine could cause political damage in what’s expected to be a bruising 2024 reelection campaign.
I’m a bot and I’m open source!
He will get nothing, probably expects nothing, but the positive press is there.
An expansion of the Child Tax Credit that focuses on the 19 million children who are shut out of the full credit because their families’ incomes are too low would come at a modest cost. For example, making the current law $2,000 credit fully available to these children would cost roughly $12 billion per year in 2022, according to the Joint Tax Committee estimates.
I’m not seeing this in the article. Is it from somewhere else?
Sure, we could end child poverty with a snap of our fingers, but what if we stoked the flames of global conflict so we could privatize and exploit the poorest country in Europe? All it costs is their dead children!
“We’re glad you understand”
Can we go ahead and just declare a state of emergency on the climate crisis? Or do we need the rest of the states to burn down as well? Shit’s getting me frustrated
hell yeah border fascism
Biden still owes us $600 from his campaign promise lol
Listen here jack
Listen Fat
1200
Where is the off ramp here? Despite billions and constant propaganda Russia is not going to lose this war on the battlefield.
How much money and how many people are we going to just send to their deaths just because prolonging the conflict weakens an adversary to US.
It’s really sad :(
We were in Iraq for 20 years despite it being so unpopular and illegal
The off ramp is whenever the defense contractors start losing money and it’s not profitable anymore
Lol so never. They have a vested interest in keeping this a stalemate as long as possible. My tinfoil hat theory is the only reason Ukraine is barred from using weapons in Russia is that the US military industrial complex would love to see this drawn out for as long as possible. Every aid package is a boon to their stock price.
Ya know there’s a country called Ukraine that’s involved in this, right? They are people defending their country and they’re going to do that with or without US support. And Ukraine will win in the end. Russia doesn’t have enough to successfully occupy Ukraine against an organized resistance which is where things could go without military aid from the west.
While a resistance would ultimately be successful, it would take a decade or more. And it’s likely a Russian occupation of Ukraine would involve genocide. Do you want that?
Sending military aid isn’t about trying to change the outcome of the war. Russia’s defeat is inevitable. The military aid is about helping Ukraine defeat Russia sooner, without the need for a prolonged resistance campaign, and that reduces the loss of life.
When you say that Ukraine will defeat Russia do you mean Ukraine will occupy the Donbass and impose a government on them that those people don’t want?
You do know that there’s a region called Donbass that is involved in this right? And they’ve been fighting for their lives since 2014. Why don’t you care about those people?
It seems unlikely that the people of Donbass do want to be a part of Russia now that they’ve had a taste of occupation.
Being conscripted, given third rate equipment or no equipment at all and being send to die is not generally an endearing act.
Good thing they have you to tell them their opinion, oh white saviour.
Being conscripted, given third rate equipment or no equipment at all and being send to die is not generally an endearing act.
This is what Ukraine’s coup government has been doing for over a year at this point.
They spent 8 years being shelled by Ukraine prior to that
You don’t get to instigate a rebellion using your own intelligence and military assets, and then invade your neighbor and claim that you never did, that’s just bullshit.
This entire conflict was instigated by Russia.
It’s very hard to invent a movement in another country. Were they backed by Russia from the outset? Obviously, but they had real reasons to be upset with what the new administration was doing. This is a little like dismissing the people who disagree with you as bots, it lets you avoid needing to consider that some people might have good reason for opposing your favored side.
Yes, absolutely it was. There have been many books and publications featuring interviews and even video footage of Russian soldiers from the outset of the war. Here’s an interview:
And Russia seized crimea right afterwards. Coincidence? Nope.
And let’s not forget how they"separatists" somehow were operating Russian military air defense systems.
Igor Girkin was found responsible for shooting down MH17 by a Dutch cour.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-63637625
… But he was a Russian commander who controlled the so-called Donetsk People’s Republic armed forces.
Russian authorities on Friday detained Igor Girkin, a former Russian commander in Ukraine and prominent war blogger, reportedly on charges of promoting extremism — marking the first time Moscow has taken action against a fervent supporter of the war in Ukraine but one who voiced loud criticism of Russian leaders and their often botched military strategy.
“Girkin, who is also known by his nom de guerre Igor Strelkov, is an ex-officer of the Federal Security Service, or FSB. He played a role in Russia’s invasion and annexation of Crimea in 2014 and then served as a commander in Russian-controlled areas of Donbas in eastern Ukraine, where he helped foment a separatist war and was accused of extrajudicial killings.”
Russia used their guys to instigate a rebellion. If you think all rebellions are free from outside influences, you are sorely mistaken and shows complete naivete regarding the current conflict.
I am assuming you are an American, so I think you have sent no one.
Pretty much. All US veterans who have died in Ukraine were volunteers. Just about everything we’ve given Ukraine is old military equipment we don’t need, and it accounts for such a small amount in the total budget while absolutely fucking the greatest threat to Europe at the moment. It might be the best ROI we’ve ever gotten from anything ever.
This is coming from someone who is extremely anti-war, but that doesn’t make me anti-defend yourself.
Ukraine opened up a goodwill right when we were cleaning out the attic. Mutually beneficial. Fuck Russia
The original commenter is probably a troll or an idiot whose idea of peace is to put down your own weapon and raise your ass in the air and await the invader to come and fuck it.
Peace with Russia is not possible. The world attempted peace with Russia in 2014 after Russia said they would not invade more of Ukraine after Crimea, now the “peace advocates” want Ukraine to give up 1/3 of their country to appease Russia and “stop” the war. At this rate Eastern Europe will be part of Russia within a few short decades.
The war is not over until every millimeter has been retaken and Russia is pushed out.
The United States also gave tens of billions of dollars worth of aid following the collapse of the Soviet Union to Russia. We paid to have all of their nuclear material secured, including providing security detail at all of their nuclear sites. And this is how they repay us.
Greatest threat to Europe is the european union and it’s politicians
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
If Russia doesn’t lose on the battlefield, Putin will invade Poland next, and then one of the following happens:
- NATO responds. Nukes fly. Game over.
- NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
Putin is Hitler with nukes. He’s trying to start World War 3. We’re trying to stop him before the conflict spirals out of control. If we fail, everybody dies.
We’re not supporting Ukraine out of the goodness of our hearts. We’re doing it to save our own asses.
NATO doesn’t respond, proves itself useless, and dissolves. Putin divides and conquers Europe, marching his army all the way to Portugal. Putin, emboldened, launches an attack on the US. Nukes fly. Game over.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself. There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash. Baltics pretty much have the same attitude but are smaller so they’d simply follow Poland. Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Now the US in its usual exceptionalism might be blissfully unaware of those dynamics, and the Kremlin because the FSB reports what the Kremlin wants to hear, but it’s true nontheless. But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in. Reluctantly and in a limited fashion, probably, just as they’re reluctant now. Germany has pretty much stopped trying to bully the US into providing more things because we’ve reached the limits of what the US will do (that is, Germany could pressure the US to deliver Abrams by tying Leos to the US also delivering tanks, but providing Taurus cruise missiles won’t be tied to ATACMS because apparently that’s a US red line).
Since the EU doesn’t have a standing army, they cannot respond. Without NATO, Putin can drive straight to the Atlantic and there’s not a goddamn thing Europeans can do about it.
NATO doesn’t have a standing army. Like the EU, it has member states. EU joint Command and Control is rather lacking but if you think that means that the EU won’t respond even though it is a defensive alliance you’re delirious.
That’s assuming the EU won’t respond, or for that matter Poland being incapable of pushing back Russia all by itself.
Them and what army? The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin without launching any nukes are the US and China, and China is on Putin’s side.
There’s about exactly one single reason why the Poles aren’t parading on the Red Square right now: Because they’re in NATO, which acts as a leash.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Finland would get pulled into it because of their own attitude and Estonia, and with them, without fail, Sweden. At which point Germany would have a hard time holding back and then it’s guaranteed that the French will be in the fray, and that’s presuming they wouldn’t have been as soon as Poland lets loose because principle.
Last I heard, Finland and Sweden had been taken over by Nazis, and Germany was in the middle of being taken over by Nazis. I’d expect them to welcome Putin’s invasion with open arms. France is too busy fighting itself to fight anyone else.
But in the end once the EU is involved the US will be, too, because the US can’t countenance Europe doing something militarily without joining in.
At which point we’re back to square one. The reason we’re having this discussion is because, in the opinion of @Roody15@reddthat.com, it is “very sad” that the US isn’t going to sit back and let Putin start World War 3.
The only countries on Earth with enough firepower to stop Putin
…include Ukraine being drip-fed western surplus. France alone would roll over Russia, the Poles aren’t as strong but they’re fucking nuts determined because history.
I assume this is some kind of joke.
Then you don’t know any Poles. You know it’s one of those Eastern European countries where the first line of the national anthem goes “Our country isn’t lost yet”, referring to centuries upon centuries of Russian imperialism. As the joke goes:
Two Polish veterans meet at a bar. Asks one: “Wawrek, if tomorrow both the Germans and the Russians invade, who do we shoot at first?”, replies the other: “Oh that’s an easy one. The Germans: Business before pleasure”.
That sure isn’t how it went last time Poland got invaded. Their country was lost until the Allies liberated them. Same with France.
Determination does not equal manpower or firepower. If it did, there wouldn’t be any Russian soldiers fighting in Ukraine right now; they’d have been defeated already. That’s why we’re sending Ukraine war supplies.
The polish army isn’t using cavalry any more. And France has nukes this time around and just for the record: France’s half-surrender was the strategically optimal move in their position.
If anyone launches nukes, our whole species dies. We’re trying to prevent that outcome.
We’re not sending anyone to their death. Ukrainian soldiers are doing the fighting, not American ones.
Mask off moment. Ukrainians aren’t even people to you. Most of them are conscripts forced to be on the front line.
Why won’t Russia stop the war?
Why did Vladimir Putin claim that Ukraine isn’t a country?
Why does Russia purchase Iranian suicide drones, and launch drone and cruise missile attacks on Ukrainian cities every week?
Why do Russians want to kill all Ukrainians when they were considered brothers 2 years ago?
Oddly enough the US makes it back in many ways as it’s being fulfilled by US military contractors. So it’s not as much of a loss financially as it seems. It’s also geopolitically a good cause as bolstering support in Europe has netted a ton of contracts Russia was fulfilling for gas and coal. Ukraine is also a US ally and likely future member of both the EU and NATO, so it makes sense to support them when invaded for absolutely no rhyme or reason by pretty much the most consistent adversary of the US throughout modern history. But I’m sure whatever you said makes sense too.
I agree it has helped the us economy. Wow we are the real heroes here… Europe now turns to us for gas/energy … military contracts getting filled… ohh who cares about the actual Ukrainians dying at least they are not US citizens …
Honestly disgusting
So you’d just abandon them to Russian imperialism? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against that.
Ukraine was fighting the invasion before the West started sending them guns anyway. Ukraine is choosing to fight whether it has support or not.
You want to abandon the people in Ukraine to fuckers with SS Totenkopf patches on their uniform? Yeah that’s historically gone fucking great for Ukrainians. I can’t possibly imagine why they’d be against.
I’m sorry, who is actually running Ukraine? Is it the Azov lot and their like?
One of the two sides of this war has warmongering ultranationalists in government. It’s not Ukraine.
Zelenskiy just a couple of weeks ago did a photo op with Azov fighters. The Ukrainian government gives money and arms and propaganda support to Neo-Nazis. No other government does that. Even Russian Neo-Nazis are fighting for Ukraine. Yes the Ukrainian government is ethnonationalist.
Zelenskiy:
There are indisputable heroes. Stepan Bandera is a hero for a certain part of Ukrainians, and this is a normal and cool thing. He was one of those who defended the freedom of Ukraine. But I think that when we name so many streets, bridges by the same name, this is not quite right.
Such a brave push back on the Nazis. He has a point. Naming every street and bridge after Bandera is going to be confusing, I’m sure the Nazis will agree.
If your proposed plan for dealing with the likes of Azov is “let Putin’s Russia win” then you do not actually have a problem with the far right being in power in Ukraine, you just have a preference in your flavour of far right. Frankly if I were in Zelenskiy’s position and a fascist told me he wanted to go die to defend democracy from other fascists, I’m not about to discourage him, I’m gonna chalk it up as a win-win
There are tons of Russian Nazis, don’t kid yourself.
“Second, the Kremlin launched “managed nationalism”, an attempt to co-opt and mobilise radical nationalist militants, including neo-Nazis, as a counterweight to an emerging anti-Putin coalition of democrats and leftist radicals.”
Russia will lose any day now. Their army has been routed and they’re constantly fleeing the lines. Hundreds of thousands of Russians are dead or zero-summed while Ukraine has no casualties. Ukraine is marching towards Moscow and this war will end with
PutinPutler shooting himself in the head! Slava Ukraini!Inb4 anyone calls me a tankie for supporting Biden sending tanks to Ukraine.
(Sorry. I can’t resist the urge to post Simpsons references)
deleted by creator
Squeeze ut all in one pckage so people have a hard time saying no because they would deny Ukraine help…
Still waiting for Biden to ask for $40 billion for US aid
Wait no more! https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/14/biden-administration-has-canceled-66-billion-in-student-debt.html
I’m frankly shocked conservatives are doing everything they can to prevent it!
Well, yes. But I also worry that student loan aid is now a red herring to ignore a lot of other issues.
“Wow, I wish Biden would spend 40 billion on US priorities”
“Here’s how Biden helped cancel 66 billion in student debt.”
“Actually that’s a red herring.”Like, I don’t love Biden either and wish he were more progressive in a WIDE variety of areas, but we should also give credit where credit is due. Also between the Inflation Reduction Act ($400b), American Rescue Plan ($1.9t), and the Infrastructure bill ($1t) there are literally trillions of dollars in additional domestic spending that would not have existed otherwise.
what areas shpuld he be more progressivd in
Medicare
Packing the courts
Regulating student loans
Providing more urban housing
Fighting domestic drug use
Addressing homelessness
More transit
Fund schools
Unions
He’s been a mixed bag on the environment, opening up more oil and gas leases on federal land (although he did just create a new national monument around the Grand Canyon to create more protected land which was a big win for Arizona tribes and environmentalists). I also wish that he would make a harder voting rights push if only to make the issue more visible even if he can’t do much without congress. And while the border policy is an improvement (not saying much compared to Trump lol), there is still a lot of capricious and arbitrary enforcement against asylum seekers and immigrants that the Biden admin has purposefully continued. Tbf border policy is ultimately something Congress needs to deal with, so it’s not going to see any specific changes for awhile.
Are those trillions going into the pockets of Americans? Even calling the student debt relief a win compared to the original promise is disingenuous.
All I’m saying is: every politician will have a few wins. Normally it’s just enough to satiate the base. Biden has done that. But that doesn’t make him a progressive and realistically we need more than that, as a country.
Corpo leader for a corpo country, but it’s not where most people actually want to be.
No, I agree those trillions won’t go directly to people and time will tell how well it’s spent. Some of that money has gone to individuals, some has gone to companies and orgs that build things like roads, and some has been and will be skimmed off the top because of course it will be. I think the overall benefits will outweigh the costs and it’s better to do something rather than nothing but who knows.
Also, he did try to cancel 400b in student debt which was shot down by the conservative Supreme Court, and so he’s used the legal tools he has left to cancel as much as he can.
Can definitely agree on asking more from our leaders, and I think the good things Biden has done definitely come from the voter base shifting left on a lot of issues, and not because he’s some sort of progressive champion.
OK, yeah. I don’t disagree with that.
Yay for working debate on Lemmy.
It was “shot down” because congress was not allocating the funds he wanted to spend to enact the relief. How dare the court actually uphold the constitution in respect to checks and balances and not let the president use executive power to supersede congressional debates and hearings.
It’s so disingenuous to fight for something because you find it morally right in idea without understanding every nuance of the path it follows. I’d like young adults relieved of the debt economy we’re building just as much as anyone else, but not at the expense of our institutional sanctity. Bad precedent is a slope.
E: meanwhile our dipshit congressmen that wouldn’t allow the funds allocated are allowing 40 billion to foreign aid and repeatedly fueling our debt economy. Unironically indict Congress on corruption charges.
40 billion to foreign aid
It’s disingenuous to frame the best defense budget ROI we’ve seen in decades as “fueling our debt economy”.
Bad precedent is a slope
I’m not sure you’re very up do date on current events of the last century if you think this is setting a precedent.
A lot of those trillions are funding business expansion, which will fund high paying jobs so more of economic stimulus, a bit like the progress administration from the 1930s. But in this case, we are building domestic manufacturing capabilities which will employ people as well as help with decarbonization.
Business is generally won’t get the money unless they spend it, so it is much better than trickle down.
