The atmosphere is so heated, and the statements are getting more and more extreme. Let’s just assume Harris wins the election. After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
After a campaign like this, how could you ever have a normal relationship with your pro-Trump neighbor/father-in-law/Uncle/Barber or what ever again?
You’re assuming those relationships survived the 2020 election. For many, myself included, they didn’t.
I was willing to overlook 2016, but after 4 years of horror culminating in a (failed) coup, and those people still supporting him, I just cut them out of my life.
That’s understandable. It’s also, in microcosm, the reason your country is so divided. If you want to continue living in a democracy, you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other.
I don’t disagree at all. However, that is a whole lot easier said than done when one side is so far gone in an alternate reality of lies and hate.
We’re going to need a mass cult de-programming or something. I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
What you think about them, they think about you. They’re not evil, they’re not idiots. If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
I just don’t know how we come back from where we are.
It looks pretty simple from where I’m standing. You talk to them. You listen to them. You find things you agree on, beginning with the smaller things. They’re not automatons, they’re people.
Update. This avalanche of supposedly tolerant progressives who are openly against the idea of talking to their fellow citizens proves to me that America deserves everything it gets. Good luck.
Let’s assume that they are not bad people. In order to bring them to sanity, it would take an ungodly amount of pressure, and they would have to have no connections back to the cult. If there is even a single connection all the effort would be for naught.
They are not where they are, due to logic or empathy, so you can’t use logic or empathy to argue them out of it. I lost my entire extended family over this.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
No, they’re both. They know they’re spreading hate, and they find it funny.
I know what you mean, when I put to nazis and bigots, through various civil discourses, the most agreeable and cordial justifications for their systematic capture and extermination or deportation, to my great surprise, they never acquiesce to any form of intellectual exchange, regarding the legitimate concerns I raise.
Its the most bizzare thing because, just previously, they’d been more than happy to declare thus and so the most polite and reasonable argumentations supporting the very same thing for other people. More so, they many were lamenting how unfair it was for them to be denied the opportunity to pontificate on such matters, just a short time previously.
I’m sure you can only imagine my surprise when they did this, after their claims of wanting nothing more than “civil discourse.”
“What you think about them, they think about you”
No, this is precisely the issue. Any leftist worth their salt can’t fucking stand conservatives and YET we will still protect their basic human rights and accept them into a collective society.
Conservatives on the other hand are perpetrating violence every single day against leftists and minorities they LOUDLY do not accept into a collective society. They deny abortions for women who are on the verge of death, they advocate for draconian health care policy that massively raises the suicide rates of trans kids because they hate trans kids and they believe deep down in their racism with an unshakable fervor that makes their meager spiritual practice of christianity look sad and pathetic in comparison.
It is far past the point of having a debate with rightwing conservatives, what is left is to intimidate them into shutting up, drowning out their voices and laughing at their tiny hateful visions of the universe.
The social fabric of the US is being ripped apart by conservative white men because they can’t handle how scary using pronouns is and frankly the solution is to activate everybody else, not humor these people yet again with another discussion they are going to approach in a fundamentally disengenous way.
What you think about them, they think about you.
True, but irrelevant.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree - they have to be at least one of those things to be MAGA, usually both.
If they lived nextdoor you would probably find each other very pleasant.
Hah! They DO live next door and I most certainly don’t find them pleasant.
Yankee here, and fully agree with what you said. Unfortunately, empathy seems to be an increasingly lost art in this country and it only seems to get worse as each side continues to dehumanized the other.
They’re not evil, they’re not idiots.
Hard disagree.
Naw, maybe you’re not queer and not being called a pedo, or followed or having your job threatened by a former president. It’s not my job to raise an adult right and free of hate, I have one child. I don’t need to burn myself out giving Republicans 3rd and 4th chances to be decent people.
You are dead wrong. I was raised in a deeply conservative lifestyle with conservative friends, family, and neighbors. I retired from a career steeped in conservatives, working shoulder to shoulder with them daily. The vast majority of the people I’ve known through the years have been conservative. I’ve been talking and listening this whole fucking time, trying to move them toward reason, naively thinking they would someday grow emotionally, become empathetic or introspective. A conservative is simply not able to experience these things. Empathy and introspection are not conservative traits.
Conservatives will not budge an inch. The more one attempts to reason with them, the more angry they become. If you aren’t careful, you will end up on their enemies list just for being a suspected non-conservative.
I appreciate your friendly approach, as it seems to come from a place of kindness and empathy, but that capacity for empathy does not exist in a conservative.
Never in history has fascism been cured by just talking and listening. Historically, the cure for fascism is only delivered by force.
Your first sentence, yes I agree. The next two, not so much. In my town in 2020 we had groups of these chuds roaming around downtown, armed, hunting for “antifa,” meaning anyone wearing black or looking slightly punk. Some of them really do want to shoot us with impunity.
But yeah, it’s also my parents, who probably wouldn’t turn me into the gestapo, but the cognitive dissonance where they simultaneously believe I’m their family but I’m also “the enemy within” doesn’t seem sustainable. At some point, it’s got to be one or the other. Getting them to agree on small things hasn’t changed their overall loyalty to the party, their disdain for Dems, or our relationship.
The usual way to fix these things is civil war. Don’t worry, you won’t have to start it, the racists and fascists will do it for you. And then they’ll get annihilated, like always.
This is because they may be loud, aggressive, greedy, hateful and boastful which all help them start and ramp up wars. But they are also stupid, cowardly, irrational, week minded and a minority, which make them loose these wars.
No. It’s called the Paradox of Tolerance. “Discussing” rationally with the intolerant only serves to justify their position in their own eyes and thereby embolden them.
In other words, putting up with them simply gives them more ink
Turning the other cheek only works if the person doing the slapping has a sense of shame. Trump and his ilk have long since proven they have none.
Yeah. Although what if half of the country is intolerant? What then? Divide the country into two?
I’m not sure it’s half, maybe half of the voting population but that’s usually only around 40-60% of the total population.
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary. I’m sick of people talking about tolerance in the face of genocidal bigotry.
Calm your pits Beka.
Nobody should be advocating for a Final Solution.
People were this divided over FDR. My next door neighbor only ever referred to FDR as that “gimpy legged sonofabitch”. This was in the 1970’s.
If the good guys win the election, we can start to heal this if we choose to. But only if we take the complaints of everyone seriously. Ignoring the needs and political power of white men is what got us into this cluster.
If the bad guys win, start looking for allies.
What complaint am I supposed to be taking seriously exactly?
The one where trans people are invading women’s spaces to rape them?
The one where immigrants are all violent criminals who eat dogs?
Or maybe the one where women are getting abortions instead of using birth control and should not be allowed to make decisions about their own bodies?
I am a white man. I don’t care about the complaints of white men that boil down to “I’ve been on top for so long that any attempt at equity feels like a threat to that position”.
Most of them are hurting in one way or another. This particular round it’s mostly the financial, mental and emotional aftershocks of the pandemic amplified by greedy people coming up with new and inventive ways to take money from the poor and give it to the rich.
But you need to first hear and understand their pain to have any hope of getting through to them.
They’ve been told over and over through misinformation that immigrants, people with disabilities, loose/secular/independent women, people of different religious beliefs, skin colour, whatever else are the reason for their suffering, and that they should be afraid of them. That initial pain is channeled from fear to anger to hate to dehumanization to… “final solutions”.
They want Trump in because they’ve been convinced that he’s powerful and “Trump will fix it.” ‘It’ being whatever the pain is.
The reality is of course a much different story of basically just greedy people distracting them while they steal their lunch money, and narcissists that will do anything to gain ever more power.
But if you want to unprogram someone from that you need to hear their pain. What was that thing that was used by the greedy and narcissistic to channel into hate.
It’s mostly hurt/hurting people who are voting for Trump. To turn them around you need to hear their pain.
If Trump said:
Then you remove the nazis from your country by any means necessary
We would know what he meant. You are saying the same genocidal thing.
I don’t remember who said it first, but I’ve linked it before: there’s no paradox if tolerance is a social contact rather than an ethic. If someone breaks the terms of the contact, then the other party is not bound by it any more.
In all seriousness, how does one listen to and communicate with people who have slid so far down a misinformation hole to a place where science is fake, every expert who disagrees is part of a global conspiracy, and the only people they listen to literally can’t stop lying?>
I still talk to and value my mother, and believe she is a good person, but she’s fallen prey to insidious propaganda and believes that Trump is just a flawed tool for God and the Republican platform is the only way to save the world from the forces of evil.
As an aside, my favorite conspiracy theory was how all the governments of the world were collaborating on the COVID lockdowns so they could control the people and take power. The governments capable of national lockdowns could take power. 🤦🏼♂️
I get where you’re coming from. Unfortunately, it’s not really that simple. Sometimes a relationship is so toxic that there’s no way to restore the basic trust that’s needed in order to function as a unit. This is no different. Pre-Trump, we might have been able to talk and salvage things; at this point, they’re just as broken as a relationship full of cheating and domestic abuse. My fear is that the only way forward is breakup (ie civil war) or some other equally deep trauma.
you’re all going to have to talk - and listen - to each other
We do not tolerate intolerance.
I’m not listening to Nazis so fuck off.
I don’t need to talk to those who are openly racist. I’m not talking about some political double speak. I have trump voters in my community that openly use racist slurs in their discussion of immigrants, and minorities in town.
You are the company you keep, and those folks aren’t part of my life. Trump was just the vector to illuminate their position that was previously kept in hushed tones behind doors.
Yes, it’s our fault that fear-addicted racists have refused to listen to reason for decades and particularly during the last eight years when an obviously unfit clown was committing scandal after scandal. We should be inviting cultists who refuse to listen to us back into our lives and calmly discuss why it is good for the country to be a Christofascist dictatorship.
If you want democracy to survive you should be intolerant of intolerance.
It’s hard to listen to the illiterate.
Supporting Trump is no different than supporting Hitler. I find it very easy to cut nazis out of my life.
One side wants me dead, there are no worthy discussions to be had.
Extreme is only coming from one side. The hateful one.
Is that the groups that hates white people and men, or the one that hates black people and women?
Bro, we have to pick between a right-wing zionist pretending to be progressive and a literal fascist who spews so much insane bullshit that it’s hard to tell how much of his brain is intact these days. There’s no good option. Nobody is excited for this election.
don’t forget felonious rapist.
And still they’re miles apart on the evil axis. That they’re both on the wrong side of neutral doesn’t make them the same. Vote to keep the fascist out and then fight zionism afterwards
Hey, it worked last election, right?
Are we still in NATO? then, yes.
Yep.
White people and men don’t understand the glass walls others have had to endure. You should sympathize before thinking you’re the victim.
It’s so true: thank you internet person for letting me know that skin color and gender can be used to determine what every person’s life has been like. Enough of this “treating people like individuals rather than stereotypes” nonsense!
By the way: what makes you think I’m either white or male?
Nothing to get back to when you don’t pay attention in the first place
Had to cut out both my parents and sibling due to their homophobic remarks and my coming to terms with being gay. The politics just furthered the gap, and the last time I spoke with them in early 2023, “It’s all about that woke generation” came out of my dad’s mouth and that was the end. I don’t expect to hear about their passing, and I’m not sure I’ll care, despite them seemingly raising me to be a decent person. These are two humans who canvassed for Obama in '08 & '12, so it was sad to see them devolve.
I usually just go to Donald Rumsfelds grave and shit on it. It brings such piece of mind to know he’s dead.
you don’t. you believe them when they tell you who they are and remove them from your life.
Very easy to hate. But it’s part of the cycle.
It’s not hate to cut horrible people out of your life. You get to pick who you let into your universe. Be picky.
It isn’t hate. It’s leaving the evil, cruel, and/or misinformed alone.
Nah, I cut my parents out of my life entirely due to the racism they have allowed to grow and fester around them in the last few years. I’m completely done with it. Not giving them any reason to think it okay or forgivable.
my dad was spouting trump shit. I don’t know if he was legit or just trying to get a rise out of me, but fuck that. il told him “I don’t associate with trump supporters, so fix that or move on. you raised me better than that, stop drinking Kool aid.”
Or, do what a disturbing number of people have done and make them the centrepiece of your entire life.
Posters all over your house, stickers and flags all over your mobility scooter, hats, T-shirts, the lot.
One of our neighbors had a MAGA collar for their dog…THEIR DOG. Why do they need to drag their DOG into this? He was a good boy. (Was, because the dog passed away from cancer a year or two ago.)
In previous elections, I’d have been able to give you an answer.
For this election, the crazy will absolutely not be over once all votes are counted. This is a pivotal moment in American History and either result will cause a lot of distress for our collective psyche.
hope my older relatives fucking die or figure out it’s time to change. on a more serious note, protest and try to help build coalitions against this but idk it seems quite grim.
you can’t reason with unreasonable people. it’s literally impossible to have a discussion with someone who dismisses everything they don’t like to hear as “fake news”
as another person commented, it requires serious deprogramming to get rid of the cult brainwashing, and that is not a simple, quick, or easy process
to answer the question: you have to get to a point where you can burn those bridges and not look back, because toxic relationships destroy mental health
We need the fascists to stop being fascists. That’s it. Literally once they stop we may not like them anymore but we can learn to live together again
You don’t. Most of us have already either fully cut-off contact with Trump supporting family members or limit our interaction with them heavily. Our country is rotted to the core, and this election won’t be the end of it. Even if Harris wins, there will be contestion of the results. There may even be a successful coup by the Republican party. A civil war is not out of the question.
There is no normal. There won’t be ever again.
You don’t. It wasn’t really normal before 2016 and normal left the building since.
Since 2016, its been a constant onslaught of idiots that live on the internet creeping out into the real world with their bullshit and conspiracy theories and half of America taking them seriously
I blame McCain. When he chose Palin to be his running mate in 08, he gave voice to the crazies on the right wing. It wasn’t long after that that we saw the rise of the tea party, which led to maga.
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You can trace it back as least as far as Barry Goldwater and the rise of right-wing “think-tanks” in the 1960s which came as a backlash to the civil rights movement and the perceived dominance of left-wing politics in government. Which led to Nixon’s “Southern Strategy”, right-wing talk radio, Fox News, and the ongoing brainwashing of much of rural America in particular.
Yeah the tea party started around 2009, so that tracks. However, I’d say we had this current undercurrent of fascism since Reagan. I don’t know if it was a little more chill in the few decades before him but we did also have FDR and internment camps, the Amerocan nazi parties live the German American Bund and others.
It’s something that american society can’t seem to shake nor doesn’t want to
This attitude is part of why we have this problem today. These people didn’t come from nowhere. They weren’t just creeps on the internet. The percentage of the population that desires a trump presidency is far too significant. Half the country has been quietly wishing for a christo-fascist oligarchy since 2001. They’ve put in a lot of time and effort to make their dream come true. It’s a shame nobody was really watching (even though the FBI has reports going back years about the infiltration of white supremacy groups into law enforcement), at least not close enough to make a difference in its growth.
The unfortunate truth is that this was allowed to happen. We dismissed their beliefs as crazy rantings instead of real threats to be addressed. If people more readily acknowledged the beliefs held by trumpets as real (a real threat) instead of internet insanity, we wouldn’t be here. Instead, we shoved them away, crying wacko. Now the propaganda runs so deep in most, there is literally no turning them back. The rise of fascism in this country hasn’t been taken seriously enough. And I don’t think it ever will be, until it’s far too late.
We dismissed
No, the Democratic Party and enlightened centrists dismissed the threat. There were people like me rallying against this bullshit since George W Bush stole the 2000 election. Some of us were able to hear these crazies clearly and realized what they wanted. We were told to shut up and stop overreacting.
Being able to say “I told you so” isn’t much of a salve when you’re starting down the barrel of a totalitarian regime, but don’t paint us all as rubes. People were sounding the alarm, they were ignored.
You are correct. I wish I had more to say than that. I wish I was cogniscient of these issues back then.
Whole i agree with most of your comment, I’m not really reading any solutions. I’d my attitude is the problem, what’s the proper attitude to have to deal with these imbeciles?
The proper attitude is to treat their beliefs as real (to them) and not just conspiracy or insanity. To look at them as your brother or sister and ask yourself “how did they get this way?” and not just hand-wave away their beliefs as insanity. The proper attitude is to truly engage with those who aren’t just acting in bad faith. How to differentiate that aspect, though, is getting harder to the point of impossibility. I fear we may have reached a tipping point where it becomes impossible to discern bad faith from deep propaganda brainwashing. I’m not sure if there is still a path forward in genuine conversation and understanding, which is the only route to breed empathy, something these people both lack within themselves and are deprived of from outside. I don’t see it as their fault. I see it as a failing of the community at large, one that is more ready to shun the individual, because that’s way easier than actually trying to genuinely engage them and help them grow as a person.
I believe the way out of fascism truly is love and compassion. My fear is that it’s a cycle; the perceived distance of fascism makes our society more susceptible to being taken over by it, leading to a fascist society benefiting the few, leading to the grassroots recognition that we are one people and one humanity, leading to an uprooting of fascism and rise of empathy.
Sorry if this was a bit hard to follow, I haven’t been sleeping well and I’m awake far too early.
Yeah the differentiation is the trick.
How does one engage sometime who thinks that Harris is literally the antichrist?
I don’t know and it distresses me, hence my fear of being past the turning point. Sometimes you can’t even begin to engage without getting outright hostility in return, such as with your example.
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They’re ignorant to literally every piece of media, news outlets, cable TV, print, tiktok, fucking Joe fucking Rogan shit, and they genuinely don’t understand why voting for trump is bad.
I think you underestimate both 1) how many news orgs/media spaces/social communities only report on Trump’s successes and democrat scandals and 2) how much of an echo chamber these people live in. Add on a few natural cognitive biases, such as team thinking and discarding evidence contrary to one’s worldview, and you have pretty much the majority of Trump voters at this time.
They are completely immersed in a world where democrats generally are evil and Trump is one of the good guys. Nothing has ever challenged them out of it, because at this point the challenges are just part of the narrative of good vs evil. Whether this changes your conclusions or not, I dunno (dunno whether I think it even should change your conclusion!), but I figure it’s worthwhile giving an accurate depiction of people. Not all malicious and/or super-ignorant, but rather simply cloistered.
I don’t know your situation, but turning from family will only harden their resolve and make them more defensive. I went through this with my mom. She voted for Trump in 2020, after years of me telling her how bad he was. I was angry and didn’t talk to her for 2 months. During this time I heard a podcast with David McRaney, about how to talk to QAnon people. It helped me to understand how they got there, and how to help them out of it. It is a process. They operate on an emotional level, and you have to relate to them on emotional level. After that, you question how they arrived at their decisions. Like:
If I asked what your favorite movie is, could you explain why it’s your favorite movie?
Emotionally connecting with them and then thoughtfully questioning their beliefs, in a non-condescending way can be beneficial. It may take days or months, but once the seed of doubt is planted, it can start a dialogue. Remember, these are people we love ❤️, we owe it to ourselves to be compassionate in conversations.
Always hurts when they believe the TV more than you
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It certainly sounds like you made the right choice for you if there is a violent history. Hope for the best for you and your brother.
Maybe this is the reason why American election campaigns never really end.
Ignore it all in the first place.
