Hey Proton how about you quit privacy-washing and actually prioritize and release feature parity products for Linux so your customers aren’t being herded onto windows’ data harvesting platform just so they can use your supposedly privacy forward products
Don’t worry, they’re preparing to discontinue all their desktop-native apps in favor of webmail (and webmail running in Electron).
After which I expect they’ll start squeezing their paying customers, since they won’t be able to leave anymore. Or sell the company, get out with “clean hands” and a wad of cash, and let someone else do the squeezing.
I don’t use proton so forgive me if this is a stupid question…
But do you need an app? Can’t you just use whatever browser you want for their services?
Of course you can access everything through the web on Linux. I really like Proton’s web mail interface. Unfortunately, Proton does not have a Linux analog to their windows client that provides automatic file syncing. I think that what the commenter is complaining about.
There is a dedicated Linux client for Proton VPN and in my experience it integrates quite well on Debian-based distributions.
Ya no drive client is the worst, followed by the fact the VPN app lacks a ton of features compared to their windows one. I don’t care about a desktop mail app personally since I use Thunderbird.
Also, there’s Thunderbird if you NEED a fat client for your email. Except Proton’s strength is where the service is located and the security of access. Having a full copy locally on your system kind of defeats that.
If you have properly implemented LUKS I don’t see any reason that should be a concern.
Unless you also employ very strict sandboxing, a rogue app or script could read those emails from your running system while LUKS is unlocked. There are plenty of CVEs relating to code execution; an infected JPEG, browser exploit, or any number of other things could expose your Thunderbird email database or the running memory to an attacker, particularly if you use “secure” services like Proton because you’re the kind of person who would be targeted by state actors.
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You need a special app that they call a “bridge” because Proton doesn’t support normal IMAP and SMTP, so you have to use the bridge to be able to use normal email clients.
But they are now porting their webmail as a cross-platform desktop Electron app, after which they’ll just likely discontinue the bridge “for safety”. And so this issue will become moot.
I’m grateful you put “for safety” in quotes there. That’s definitely bullshit talk. I’m further grateful that I just self-host my email. I can skip the bullshit of companies making random decisions that are ultimately against my wishes.
The Linux Experiment recently interviewed the CEO who answered this question.
Basically it’s the same as anything else. Linux requires more effort to code for due to its variety of distributions, and has a significantly smaller userbase.
In short, don’t blame Proton, blame the (lack of) users.
That’s a bullshit excuse. Looks at Arch’s AUR. Look at Gentoo’s guru. What happens for proprietary stuff is a deb or rpm package is downloaded, extracted and files copies where they should be. That’s it. And it works, because the cornerstone of the system is libc and the kernel. And these, for the overwhelming majority of applications, behave exactly the same on all distros.
Variety of distributions doesn’t affect the effort in coding, it adds overhead for package management. Only rarely does it require the developer to add some extra code for either an edge case or some specific library requirement.
On top of that, Flatpak and AppImage exist to solve this issue if you don’t want to deal with it.
This is a pretty rich statement coming from Proton who has very publicly given out “private” info about its users to law enforcement without even so much as a hint of resistance. I doubt they would want to spend any resources on cross platform if they don’t even back up their claim about true privacy.
Even zoom has a lazy script that packages their app in literally every possible format possible because it runs the exact same on every distro. It is not that hard. Literally the only way this doesn’t work if you hired some 3rd party MSFT dev to create some insane C++ app with pure Windows API calls instead of using a library.
Edit : okay yea i fd up guys anything to support women was only thinking of the slezzers
I don’t want google to read emails from my doctor, or between me and my friend in a country that has an authoritarian government, or really anything. If you think you have nothing you need to keep out of the massive surveillance network most companies have become, you’re mistaken.
Is this satire ‘/s’?
Do you realize that right now there are US states trying to make publicly existing as a transgender person prosecutable as an obscene act? Or that there are states where abortion is illegal? I’m assuming you are american but that also applies to other countries. In Russia any public indication that one is LGBT is liable to get one persecuted by law and by bands of raging homophobes.
At the best of times this attitude “if you have done nothing wrong, you got nothing to hide” is naive. But these days, as the many flaws of the justice system and the raging bigotry of many people are transparent to see and widely commented on, it’s downright clueless to say something like this.
you are right i didnt remember there are good people too
I think the bigger issue is the variety of distros that end up not being compatible. Even if you overall have a lot of Linux users if they, for the sake of argument, distribute evenly between all distros then it’s still a lot of effort to code. The only difference is that the argument will change from “Linux has a small userbase” to “Distribution X has a small userbase”.
Linux doesn’t just need more users to be worthwhile to develop for, it also needs a distro agnostic solution to run software. That or significantly reducing (or streamlining) the amount of distros so the developers would have far less configurations to account for.
That’s why I mentioned both 🙂
Flatpaks and nix packages work on pretty much every distro.
I mean, can’t you just package your app in flatpack or even snap? Bam, your app works on 99% of distributions for little effort. That’s what Spotify does, and I’d argue they have even less incentive to support Linux than proton does
I don’t know, I’m not a developer. Lots of companies don’t make their products available on Linux, most cite similar reasoning, so it’s unsurprising. But I agree it’s disappointing. I really wish Linux was more user-friendly.
He also answered this claim, it is right for apps that aren’t stuff like Proton VPN that can’t work in a sandboxed environment. They are working on it iirc
Screw VPNs, give us everything else!
Well… A drive app will need to access the filesystem pretty in deep to support file syncing, whuch is harder to do on flatpak, their password manager is an extension so on linux too, and for the mail bridge app I think it’s already on linux. Those are all the existing proton services
Spoken like someone who has never developed a app package
Sure, as long as you don’t need any integration with other software, don’t need arbitrary IPC, and actually keep some dependencies in line with some common denominator because there’s only so much you can do with static linking (oh excuse me, distributing the shared libraries in the same package as your binaries as if it’s a new thing) once it reach the “program must actually run” part.
Flatpack and every other similar solution that are described as “works everywhere” always come with a heck of limitations.
Last in checked email ain’t all that complex, so seems like a good match
Thunderbird, MegaSync, Bitwarden all distribute as flatpak just fine, and it covers most of the functionality of proton suite.
Ironically the only two services this list doesn’t cover: Proton VPN and Proton Bridge, are on flathub…
I finally said screw it and am leaving Proton for a proper paid service. I never upgraded Proton to a paid tier because it never matured enough for me to use for real. I never once migrated contacts over to it (just a couple people who understood I was testing it).
Yea, so there’s a connection to my credit card. At least it’s with a professional org that has proper modern mail management (something post-2000), and gives you tools to manage your email.
I really wanted Proton to work out so I could recommend it to friends and family. But it’s a terrible user experience. I missed 50 emails because it keeps moving them to spam even after I set the sender as not spam. Oh, and spam management requires (according to support) logging into the web, not thru the mobile client. 🤦♂️
Can you imagine telling a customer this with a straight face and not seeing a problem with it? I’m using your app and can’t manage spam?
I mean, this is the mail service whose own docs candidly state that their mobile app “sometimes doesn’t work”. 'Nuff said.
That sucks! I have never experienced any of these issues
What service are you moving to? I’m curious of other alternatives.
Here’s a good starting point. All of them are hosted in Europe and enjoy strong privacy protection as an extra bonus.
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I tried the new outlook for about 30 seconds. They injected ads into my mail.
Instantly uninstalled it.
Gmail does the same, at least for me on mobile when I look at my promotions Inbox
You can turn this multiple inbox feature off. Then you will not have that problem anymore. I did that and now have an ad free Gmail app
Thanks for the tip!
I Sincerely hope you logged back in to outlook.com after to reject all permissions and tear out your data/accounts
Nope. But I think I’ll do that now. Thanks for the prompt.
the new version of thunderbird is amaaaazzzzing
Really. It’s been a decade at least since I last tried it. It was primitive and error prone at the time.
It’s been a decade at least since I last tried it. It was primitive
the old versions were not very good, but ‘supernova’ came out a few months ago and everything improved. Its really good
Already downloaded and installed. Very quick and easy setup, easy to use and intuitive, no bs. Thumbs up. Thanks for the reminder it exists.
It was so broken when I tested it that if you dragged a folder two levels deep it would disappear. Had to roll back to get that folder out.
I hope you changed your email account passwords after. What many people don’t realise is that when you fill out the “configure your email account” form, the details aren’t kept local to your PC. You are giving Microsoft the login details to your email account. This is a major departure from how Outlook and Windows Mail used to work.
So you’ve uninstalled the app, but how can you ensure they aren’t still polling your emails?
I mean, if it’s an Outlook email and not from another provider using Outlook as a frontend, it’s part of Microsoft’s ecosystem anyways. Unless your whole inbox is encrypted (and it’s probably not if it’s not being advertised as such lol), it’s on Microsoft’s servers and they have control over it anyways.
That said, definitely change the password if you just used Outlook as your email client at some point!
Well that’s the thing. The new Outlook app is now the default email program on Windows. So you’ll have people setting up their Fastmail, Gmail, GMX and countless other mailboxes on it, just like they always have.
Except this time your password is being given to Microsoft, not just the email app on your computer.
That makes sense. I always just used my email from the browser unless there’s something specific I need from an email client or the setup is employer-provided/mandated, but I guess a lot of people just go with whatever is put in front of their face first.
I use the old outlook, so M$ still has my info.
It’s almost as if Microsoft doesn’t do that already!
It’s basically gmail. It’s a web/email server that you give your creds over to . It has an offline mode that I guess makes it an app.
Yeah they read your shit.
For consumers, yeah they scan your shit to sell advertisements to you. For Business customers —that could get real illegal real quick.
MS has much better privacy for licensed customers. It’s well documented and in their MSA.
This is why I don’t get excited when I hear some software that I already use and works fine gets an update. More often than not the update makes the software worse.
It used to not be the case, but as of the past decade or so, it seems like more and more software is getting lower quality or substantially bug ridden. Not just on windows either. It’s everything now.
Back in the day, each update used to fix bugs, add genuinely useful features, and were eagerly anticipated. Now, I get to do lovely things like RMA a bricked steam deck on stable channel or listen to New Teams’ ringer doubling, once before a call is picked up, and ringing again after the phone is answered. I wish I was joking for either of these.
On that topic, is there an alternative for a mail client + calendar for Win 11 that doesn’t look and feel like a Windows 95 exe named Thunderbird?
eM Client is the absolute best I’ve ever used.
I’ve been using Thunderbird and loving it. They’re developing a mobile app now as well!
There’s surprisingly few standalone email clients for normal people on desktop platforms as far as I know.
Reading through their mail merge tutorial, their method looks insanely risky: putting all addresses in “to” and rembering to click another button.
Thunderbird did get a UI overhaul semi-recently so it might offer what you’re after now.
I also liked eM Client which has a free version.
I must’ve missed this by a thread when I gave Thunderbird another shot six months ago. Cool!
This looks like Win 95 to you?
Of course, this is what I see /s
Real.
To be fair, that is the concept art, the real thing looks more like this:
Certainly not Windows 95, but not as good as the concept art. Yet people still complain A LOT, because it breaks theor two decade old CSS and “looks like a electron app” (whatever that means…).
If someone tells me “it looks like an electron app” I assume they mean “doesn’t have a native window bar”
Actually this the first time I noticed Thunderbird don’t have a native window bar LOL.
Like who looks at window bar all day?!
Like if proton was a VPS kind of thingy, even like some form of managed mail service through a docker container or something, where the user had control? That would be nice. But even then, who’s to say they aren’t monitoring the mail communication from the other end of that? You can’t really trust any of these mail providers, because they simply have too much control over the days.
As someone with an iCloud account, every time I try to use Outlook it randomly deletes emails from my iCloud account. I’ve posted this multiple times on Microsoft support site with others confirming and since it’s been more than year with no acknowledgment or fix I am convinced it’s a feature not a bug. YMMV.
Just stop using it with outlook then?
I wasn’t asking for your advise but was merely pointing out experience that others may not want to repeat. I don’t use Outlook at all.
You sure you did not use POP3?
Yes I went over all settings multiple times with Outlook support. It’s a bug/feature they are not interested in fixing.
Yeah, that update was the final push that moved me to Linux on my primary computer. I’ve used Linux for about 20 years on everything that wasn’t my gaming PC and between the advancements made by Valve and the increasing invasive nature of Windows put an end to my relationship with Microsoft.
Unlike proton mail , microsoft offers basic IMAP POP functionality of its desktop app for free, Maybe proton should offer the same “essential” email functionality for free before criticizing Microsoft. there are many ways to monetize a service without rendering the free version legless.
It’s in the works, paid users can test. Then it’ll be a free desktop client.
They have had desktop bridge app for years but it is only accessible to paying users.
there are many ways to monetize a service without rendering the free version legless
Like Microsofts data collection for targeted advertising?
Proton encrypts and decrypts your data on your machine. The secure key for this lives on your machine and never leaves. Proton do not have a copy of your key because if that key is shared with anyone, human or program, then it is no longer secure. In order to build the feature you’re talking about, that security would have to be broken. Not changed: broken. Made ineffective. Thus defying the entire point of the product.
I recommend further study. This will get you started: https://www.eccouncil.org/cybersecurity-exchange/cyber-novice/free-cybersecurity-courses-beginners/
just let me encrypt my data locally. I don’t trust their obfuscated JavaScript to handle my encryption keys. Give me IMAP and I’ll use my good old client with my OpenPGP plugin.
Your data is encrypted locally with Proton. Your second sentence is what you really mean, and I’m not saying you have to use or trust Proton, just that because of that local encryption of the data, third party apps can’t access the data without compromising the security of the service.
Your described setup takes knowledge (and patience!) which customers of Proton do not possess. If you do, Proton is not the product for you, but it doesn’t matter because you can build and maintain what you need.
As if the old outlook app wasn’t as …. Oh Shit! This is more egregious
“I heard you like data collection so we put data collecting email app in your data collecting OS so we can collect data about our data collection”
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Should I make it into a ‘Yo Dawg’ meme?
Always
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Uninstall that shit.
Edit: if you HAVE to use Outlook (because of work, etc), use the web version of it exclusively.
What’s the privacy conscious, and future-proof way to have email, that isn’t as crazy expensive as Proton?
Or the PWA version if you’re so inclined.
I give the web version credit, it’s pretty swell.
The web version and the new version look and feel nearly identical for me. Been using it at work for 6 months now.
Same as it’s always been
