- Rabbit R1 AI box is actually an Android app in a limited $200 box, running on AOSP without Google Play.
- Rabbit Inc. is unhappy about details of its tech stack being public, threatening action against unauthorized emulators.
- AOSP is a logical choice for mobile hardware as it provides essential functionalities without the need for Google Play.
Why are there AI boxes popping up everywhere? They are useless. How many times do we need to repeat that LLMs are trained to give convincing answers but not correct ones. I’ve gained nothing from asking this glorified e-waste something, pulling out my phone and verifying it.
What I don’t get is why anyone would like to buy a new gadget for some AI features. Just develop a nice app and let people run it on their phones.
That’s why though. Because they can monetize hardware. They can’t monetize something a free app does.
Plenty of free apps get monetized just fine. They just have to offer something people want to use that they can slather ads all over. The AI doo-dads haven’t shown they’re useful. I’m guessing the dedicated hardware strategy got them more upfront funding from stupid venture capital than an app would have, but they still haven’t answered why anybody should buy these. Just postponing the inevitable.
I have now heard of my first “ai box”. I’m on Lemmy most days. Not sure how it’s an epidemic…
I haven’t seen much of them here, but I use other media too. E.g, not long ago there was a lot of coverage about the “Humane AI Pin”, which was utter garbage and even more expensive.
There is s fuck ton on money laundering coming from China nowadays and they invest millions in any tech-bro stupid idea to dump their illegal cash.
It’s not black or white.
Of couse AI hallucinates, but not all that an LLM produces is garbage.
Don’t expect a “living” Wikipedia or Google, but, it sure can help with things like coding or translating.
I don’t necessarily disagree. You can certainly use LLMs and achieve something in less time than without it. Numerous people here are speaking about coding and while I had no success with them, it can work with more popular languages. The thing is, these people use LLMs as a tool in their process. They verify the results (or the compiler does it for them). That’s not what this product is. It’s a standalone device which you talk to. It’s supposed to replace pulling out your phone to answer a question.
I quite like kagis universal summarizer, for example. It let’s me know if a long ass YouTube video is worth watching
I use LLMs as a starting point to research new subjects.
The google/ddg search quality is hot garbage, so LLM at least gives me the terminology to be more precise in my searchs.
I just used ChatGPT to write a 500-line Python application that syncs IP addresses from asset management tools to our vulnerability management stack. This took about 4 hours using AutoGen Studio. The code just passed QA and is moving into production next week.
https://github.com/blainemartin/R7_Shodan_Cloudflare_IP_Sync_Tool
Tell me again how LLMs are useless?
The code is bad and I would not approve this. I don’t know how you think it’s a good example for LLMs.
The code looks like any other Python code out there.
We’re doomed then because I would reject that in a MR for being unprofessional and full of bugs.
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In one of those weird return None combination. Also I don’t get why it insists on using try catch all the time. Last but not least, it should have been one script only with sub commands using argparse, that way you could refactor most of the code.
Also weird license, overly complicated code, not handling HTTPS properly, passwords in ENV variables, not handling errors, a strange retry mechanism (copy pasted I guess).
It’s like a bad hack written in a hurry, or something a junior would write. Something that should never be used in production. My other gripe is that OP didn’t learn anything and wasted his time. Next time he’ll do that again and won’t improve. It’s good if he’s doing that alone, but in a company I would have to fix all this and it’s really annoying.
I don’t think LLMs are useless, but I do think little SoC boxes running a single application that will vaguely improve your life with loosely defined AI features are useless.
Who’s going to tell them that “QA” just ran the code through the same AI model and it came back “Looks Good”.
:-)
It’s no sense trying to explain to people like this. Their eyes glaze over when they hear Autogen, agents, Crew ai, RAG, Opus… To them, generative AI is nothing more than the free version of chatgpt from a year ago, they’ve not kept up with the advancements, so they argue from a point in the distant past. The future will be hitting them upside the head soon enough and they will be the ones complaining that nobody told them what was comming.
They aren’t trying to have a conversation, they’re trying to convince themselves that the things they don’t understand are bad and they’re making the right choice by not using it. They’ll be the boomers that needed millennials to send emails for them. Been through that so I just pretend I don’t understand AI. I feel bad for the zoomers and genas that will be running AI and futilely trying to explain how easy it is. Its been a solid 150 years of extremely rapid invention and innovation of disruptive technology. But THIS is the one that actually won’t be disruptive.
Please show me good code done with AI. I’m waiting.
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Tell me about how when you used Llama 3 with Autogen locally, and how in the world you managed to pay a large company to use disproportionate amounts of energy for it. You clearly have no idea what is going on on the edge of this tech. You think that because you made an openai account that now you know everything that’s going on. You sound like an AOL user in the 90 that thinks the internet has no real use.
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You’re just saying that you will only taste free garbage wine, and nobody can convince you that expensive wine could ever taste good. That’s fine, you’ll just be surprised when the good wine gets cheap enough for you to afford or free. Your unwillingness to taste it has nothing to do with what already exists. In this case, it’s especially naive since you could just go watch videos of people using actually good wine.
Wonderfully said, this is a very good point.
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Downvotes by a few uneducated people mean nothing. The tools are already there. You are free to use them and think about this for yourself. I’m not even talking about what will be here in the future. There is some really great stuff right now. Even if doing some very simple setup is too daunting for you, you can just watch people on youtube doing it to see what is available. People in this thread have literally already told you what to type into your search box.
In the early 90s, people exactly like you would go on and on about how stupid the computerbros were for thinking anyone would ever use this new stupid “intertnet” thing. You do you, it is totally fine if you think because a handful of uneducated, vocal people on the internet agree with you that technology has mysteriously frozen for the first time in history, then you must all be right.
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It’s a shortcut for experience, but you lose a lot of the tools you get with experience. If I were early in my career I’d be very hesitant relying on it as its a fragile ecosystem right now that might disappear, in the same way that you want to avoid tying your skills to a single companies product. In my workflow it slows me down because the answers I get are often average or wrong, it’s never “I’d never thought of doing it that way!” levels of amazing.
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You used the right tool for the job, saved you from hours of work. General AI is still a very long ways off and people expecting the current models to behave like one are foolish.
Are they useless? For writing code, no. Most other tasks yes, or worse as they will be confiently wrong about what you ask them.
Are they useless?
Only if you believe most Lemmy commenters. They are convinced you can only use them to write highly shitty and broken code and nothing else.
This is my expirence with LLMs, I have gotten it to write me code that can at best be used as a scaffold. I personally do not find much use for them as you functionally have to proofread everything they do. All it does change the work load from a creative process to a review process.
I don’t agree. Just a couple of days ago I went to write a function to do something sort of confusing to think about. By the name of the function, copilot suggested the entire contents of the function and it worked fine. I consider this removing a bit of drudgery from my day, as this function was a small part of the problem I needed to solve. It actually allowed me to stay more focused on the bigger picture, which I consider the creative part. If I were a painter and my brush suddenly did certain techniques better, I’d feel more able to be creative, not less.
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But we never have proofs that it gives good code, that’s convenient…
So you want me to go into one of my codebases, remember what came from copilot and then paste it here? Lol no
Of course you can’t.
Just a couple of days ago
You already forgot, that’s convenient, again.
Yeah you post your employer first, dumbass
All you want is something to belittle
I think the reason they’re useful for writing code is that there’s a third party - the parser or compiler - that checks their work. I’ve used LLMs to write code as well, and it didn’t always get me something that worked but I was easily able to catch the error.
To be honest… that doesn’t sound like a heavy lift at all.
Dream of tech bosses everywhere. Pay an intermediate dev for average level senior output.
Intermediate? Nah, junior. They’re cheaper after all.
But senior devs do a lot more than output code. Sometimes - like Bill Atkinson’s famous -2000 line change to Quickdraw - their jobs involve a lot of complex logic and very little actual code output.
The best convincing answer is the correct one. The correlation of AI answers with correct answers is fairly high. Numerous test show that. The models also significantly improved (especially paid versions) since introduction just 2 years ago.
Of course it does not mean that it could be trusted as much as Wikipedia, but it is probably better source than Facebook.I think Meta hates your answer
An LLM has never generated a correct answer to any of my queries.
I’ve asked GPT4 to write specific Python programs, and more often than not it does a good job. And if the program is incorrect I can tell it about the error and it will often manage to fix it for me.
I don’t believe you
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I only “believe the hype” because a good developer friend of mine suggested I try copilot so I did and was impressed. It’s an amazing technical achievement that helps me get my job done. It’s useful every single day I use it. Does it do my job for me? No of fucking course not, I’m not a moron who expected that to begin with. It speeds up small portions of tasks and if I don’t understand or agree with its solution, it’s insanely easy not to use it.
People online mad about something new is all this is. There are valid concerns about this kind of tech, but I rarely see that. Ignorance on the topic prevails. Anyone calling ai “useless” in a blanket statement is necessarily ignorant and doesn’t really deserve my time except to catch a quick insult for being the ignorant fool they have revealed themselves to be.
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You would need to be pulling some trickery on Microsoft to get access to copilot for more than a single 30 day trial so I’m skeptical you’ve actually used it. Sounds like you’re using other products which may be much worse. It also sounds like you work in a conservative shop. Good luck with that
OK
That seems unlikely, unless “any” means two.
Perhaps the problem is that I never bothered to ask anything trivial enough, but you’d think that two rhyming words starting with 'L" would be simple.
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“AI” is a really dumb term for what we’re all using currently. General LLMs are not intelligent, it’s assigning priorities to tokens (words) in a database, based on what tokens were provided before it, to compare and guess the next most logical word and phrase, really really fast. Informed guesses, sure, but there’s not enough parameters to consider all the factors required to identify a rhyme.
That said, honestly I’m struggling to come up with 2 rhyming L words? Lol even rhymebrain is failing me. I’m curious what you went with.
Ok, by asking you mean that you find somewhere questions that someone identified as being answered wrongly by LLM, and asking yourself.
Nope.
“Fairly high” is still useless (and doesn’t actually quantify anything, depending on context both 1% and 99% could be ‘fairly high’). As long as these models just hallucinate things, I need to double-check. Which is what I would have done without one of these things anyway.
Hallucinations are largely dealt with if you use agents. It won’t be long until it gets packaged well enough that anyone can just use it. For now, it takes a little bit of effort to get a decent setup.
1% correct is never “fairly high” wtf
Also if you want a computer that you don’t have to double check, you literally are expecting software to embody the concept of God. This is fucking stupid.
1% correct is never “fairly high” wtf
It’s all about context. Asking a bunch of 4 year olds questions about trigonometry, 1% of answers being correct would be fairly high. ‘Fairly high’ basically only means ‘as high as expected’ or ‘higher than expected’.
Also if you want a computer that you don’t have to double check, you literally are expecting software to embody the concept of God. This is fucking stupid.
Hence, it is useless. If I cannot expect it to be more or less always correct, I can skip using it and just look stuff up myself.
Obviously the only contexts that would apply here are ones where you expect a correct answer. Why would we be evaluating a software that claims to be helpful against 4 year old asked to do calculus? I have to question your ability to reason for insinuating this.
So confirmed. God or nothing. Why don’t you go back to quills? Computers cannot read your mind and write this message automatically, hence they are useless
Obviously the only contexts that would apply here are ones where you expect a correct answer.
That’s the whole point, I don’t expect correct answers. Neither from a 4 year old nor from a probabilistic language model.
And you don’t expect a correct answer because it isn’t 100% of the time. Some lemmings are basically just clones of Sheldon Cooper
The answer is “marketing”
They have pushed AI so hard in the last couple of years they have convinced many that we are 1 year away from Terminator travelling back in time to prevent the apocalypse
- Incredible levels of hype
- Tons of power consumption
- Questionable utility
- Small but very vocal fanbase
s/Crypto/AI/
I just started diving into the space from a localized point yesterday. And I can say that there are definitely problems with garbage spewing, but some of these models are getting really really good at really specific things.
A biomedical model I saw seemed lauded for it’s consistency in pulling relevant data from medical notes for the sake of patient care instructions, important risk factors, fall risk level etc.
So although I agree they’re still giving well phrased garbage for big general cases (and GPT4 seems to be much more ‘savvy’), the specific use cases are getting much better and I’m stoked to see how that continues.
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I think it’s a delayed development reaction to Amazon Alexa from 4 years ago. Alexa came out, voice assistants were everywhere. Someone wanted to cash in on the hype but consumer product development takes a really long time.
So product is finally finished (mobile Alexa) and they label it AI to hype it as well as make it work without the hard work of parsing wikipedia for good answers.
Alexa and Google home came out nearly a decade ago
Alexa is a fundamentally different architecture from the LLMs of today. There is no way that anyone with even a basic understanding of modern computing would say something like this.
Alexa is a fundamentally different architecture from the LLMs of today.
Which is why I explicitly said they used AI (LLM) instead of the harder to implement but more accurate Alexa method.
Maybe actually read the entire post before being an ass.
Because money, both from tech hungry but not very savvy consumers, and the inevitable advertisers that will pay for the opportunity for their names to be ejected from these boxes as part of a perfectly natural conversation.
This is the business equivalent of throwing a tantrum.
Look I think this little thing is a cool gimmicky thing that is cheap and doesn’t really have any practical application at all… I forgot where I was going with that comment but I guess it pretty much sums up my thoughts.
Isn’t that like 99,99% of all apps out there?
The issue isn’t even with what it runs on, albeit selling it as specialized hardware is really bizarre, when it’s just a glorified embedded platform with a scroll wheel
Is that not custom hardware? I really don’t see any issue with how they built this thing. The issue is what they built.
The company is known for making quirky hardware, usually niche musical instruments with creatively chosen knobs, switches, cute UIs and such.
They figured they could ride the AI hype wave based on their expensive niche audience but it’s blowing up in their face.
You say “bizarre” they say “marketing strategy”… They chose to do this knowing people wouldn’t be milked $200 for an app, but if they make it look like a device, the sheep will be lured
You should see the rest of the overpriced toys these guys have marketed as genius over the years.
It’s so weird how they’re just insisting it isn’t an android app even though people have proven it is. Who do they expect to believe them?
They have thought of a specific design for the device using its own interaction modality and created a product that is more than just software.
Therefore don’t get why people refer to it being just an app? Does it make it worth less, because it runs on Android? Many devices, e.g. e-readers are just Android Apps as well. If it works it works.
In this case it doesn’t, so why not focus on that?
The point being, they are charging 200 bucks for hardware that is superfluous and low end for an incomplete software experience that could be delivered without that on an app. The question is, are you going to give up your smartphone for this new device? Are you going to carry both? Probably not.
“It can do 10% of the shit your phone can do, only slower, on a smaller screen, with its own data connection, and inaccurately because you have to hope that our “AI” is sufficiently advanced to understand a command, take action on that command, and respond in a short amount of time. And that’s not to even speak about the horrible privacy concerns or that it’s a brick without connection!”
Everything about this project seems lackluster at best, other than maybe the aesthetic design from teenage engineering, but even then, their design work seems a bit repetitive. But that may be due to how the company is asking for the work. “We wanna be like Nothing and Playdate!!” “I gotchu fam!”
To address your point about e-readers, they have specific use cases. Long battery lives, large, efficient e-ink displays, and the convenience of having all your books, or a large subset, available to you offline! But when those things aren’t a concern, yea, an app will do.
Like with most contemporary product launches, I simply find myself asking, “Who is this for?”
It’s an experimental device and by buying it you invest into r&d. It’s not meant to replace a smartphone as of now, but similar ones eventually will.
My point stands, because they are offering a completely new (but obv lacking) experience with novel design solutions. What they made is a toy, which is not really unusual for teenage engineering. But if they do as they did with other devices in the past this thing might actually rock in the future. They are not inexperienced and usually over super long support for their devices.
TE is way older than Nothing and Playdate btw…
No, they won’t. Because it’s just a shitty downgraded smartphone controlled by a super shady company with massive security and privacy concerns.
It’s an experimental device and by buying it you invest into r&d.
This is laughably untrue. By buying this you’ve proven to them that their marketing oriented approach to product development is correct, and that customers will throw away good money on half-designed, disposable shit.
By the looks of this shitty project, they spent most of their money on design idiots that think they’re the next coming of Steve Jobs, and blathering marketing morons that think if they say AI and “the future” enough that it doesn’t matter that the products they actually deliver are half-done, also-ran, clout-chasing garbage with hardware from the clearance section of Alibaba.
They’ve said they are working on integration with other apps, and have said the ultimate goal is the AI could create its own interface for any app. I dunno if that’s gonna happen but if it did it would be closer to an actual assistant, imagine “rabbit, log onto my work schedule app and check my vacation hours” or “rabbit, compare prices for a SanDisk 256 gig memory card on Amazon, eBay, and Newegg”.
More than likely it’ll just fuck it all up but that’s the dream I think.
I mean I have an eReader but most of the time I’m too lazy to go find it and my Kindle app works just fine. I am eyeing those eink phones though…
Why even try to sell me another device though?
Anything and everything this square does, my phone can do better already and has the added benefit of already being in my pocket and not a pain in the ass to use.
Because, you know, technological development? Someone has to fund R&D, because it’s not cheap. And in 10 years everyone will have similar ai-enhanced devices. No one thought smartphones will make it back in the days as well. And I’m already looking forward to the time when I don’t have to look down anymore to get information
And in 10 years everyone will have similar ai-enhanced devices.
In 10 years (or actually 0 years because it’s already kinda true) people will have an AI enhanced device… And it’ll be their phone.
Also, you’re arguing something I’m going to name the inevitability fallacy (for my own amusement). It’s not inevitable that everyone will have one of these particular type of devices in the same way it wasn’t inevitable that everyone would start watching 3d TV in their houses.
This is just another in a long line of things that supply side economics driven companies are trying to sell us. There’s next to no need or demand for this thing, and there’s no guarantee that there will be.
my honda is just android software, if thats the only part you look at too.
No it’s not. Your Honda has several different computers in it, only on of which is likely to be running Android.
This is more like someone offering a “brand new method of personal travel” to replace your car, but it turns out that it’s just an old Honda with only one seat, a fuel tank that only holds 10L, and a custom navigation app. There’s nothing it does that your Honda can’t do better, and you won’t want to replace your Honda with this.
true but we all have tons of successful devices that are secretly like this, smart doorbells and flood lights and watches etc. we also have all seen terrible ones. its the implementation that isn’t magical.
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What’s your problem with smart dildos?
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No, they’re not.
An ereader is a piece of hardware that has a distinct purpose that cannot be matched by other hardware (high quality, high contrast, low power draw static content). Some of them do run Android, and that’s a huge value add. But the actual hardware is the reason it exists.
This is just a dogshit Android phone. There is no unique hardware niche it’s filling. It’s an extremely obvious scam that is very obviously massively downgraded in all of value, utility, and performance by being forced onto separate hardware.
Investors who don’t bother reading past the letters A and I in the prospectus.
They are technically not wrong when they say that the whole experience isn’t made up of just an App
They are intentionally dodging the ACTUAL question.
Anyways here is a leak of their “LAM”, which is just playwright for the most part. https://web.archive.org/web/20240424133441if_/https://pixeldrain.com/api/file/vYHXbUwP?download
With that, we have both components, yay?
You know, pairing an LLM with Playright is actually a pretty great idea. But that’s something I can totally roll on my own.
The same question was asked a million times during the crypto boom. “They’re insisting that [some-crypto-project] is a safe passive income when people have proven that it’s a ponzi scheme. Who do they expect to believe them?” And the answer is, zealots who made crypto (or in this case, AI) the basis of their entire personality.
In this case the same people made both, so they are already practiced
‘Android’ is a certification with requirements in installed Google apps and homscreen links, so there’s that.
Their target audience are the most gullible tech evangelists in the world that think AI is magic. If there was a limit to the lies those people are willing to believe, they wouldn’t be buying the thing to begin with.
This will flop though. So will the stupid Humane pin.
Either there are very few people that gullible or that group isn’t quite as gullible as you think.
Oh 🦆, I was thinking this was humane and wondering why people were saying it is only $200.
It’s the Juicero strategy.
“You can’t squeeze our juice packs! Only our special machine can properly squeeze our juice packs for optimal taste!”
Ahh, the good ol’ days, before we knew how batshit AvE was.
I’m assuming you’re talking about the YouTuber; It’s been since before the pandemic that I’ve watched AvE, what did he do?
Leaned hard into anti-vax and sympathizing with the Canadian trucker protests, and made it a fairly prominent part of his videos. Not entirely surprising that he held some of the views, but he got high on his own LIBERTARIAN!!! supply and started thinking that if he thought it, his audience must want to hear it.
Ah, what a shame, he had some good stuff.
Reviewer proceeds to squeeze more juice out with their hands than the machine managed.
Should’ve named the company Snake Oil Inc.
it has the same cpu as my budget 100$ phone from 2018 lol
It does not need much to upload data and play audio. They could probably have gone even lower.
Bravo. I need to watch this show again…
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yeah but it’s also a power hog, power usage never dropped below 1200ma on idle on my phone
The processing was done server-side as it is with the other thing. If you find a way to do it client-side let me know otherwise I’m not interested in your dumb product.
What, you aren’t excited about a future where everything is cloud computing spyware that sends all your activity to an AI to be analyzed and picked apart by strangers?
Spoiler: when they let you know about the better device, your phone will already be much better at the same client-side processing anyway.
Yes, but it’s also unauthenticated (it doesn’t verify it comes from the real device, or even run an account belonging to a device owner)
You just need the app
Until they inevitably shut it down
What? No way!
/s
their page to link accounts to it was not a real webapp, it was a novnc page that would connect to an ubuntu vm that runs chrome with no sandboxing and basic password store under fluxbox wm
someone dumped the home directory from it
Well that’s horrific.
Holy shit, that’s actually hilarious, I imagine someone would have noticed when their paste/auto type password managers didn’t work
For those confused, this sounds like instead of making a real website, they spin up a vm, embed a remote desktop tool into their website and have you login through chrome running on their VM, this is sooooo sketch it, its unreal anyone would use this in a public product.
Imagine if to sign into facebook from an app, you had to go to someone else’s computer, login and save your credentials on their PC, would that be a good idea?
What I don’t understand is why. This sounds like way more work than spinning up some out-of-the-box framework with oAuth or a Google login and hosting it on Lambda or Azure. What is logging in on a VM box even going to do for the device?
I’ve looked it up and it’s even uglier and I can kinda understand why they did it this way Basically, for their “integrations” they aren’t using any official APIs. Instead they just use the websites and automate them via the Playwright framework. So for each user they have a VM running with a Chrome browser to access the services. So now they have the problem that they need to get their users session cookies into the browser. And the easiest solution for that is having the users access their VM via VNC and just log into the automated browser.
This is such a hacky solution that I’m actually in awe of it’s shittiness. That’s something you throw together in an all-nighter during a Hackathon, not a production ready solution
I wish I knew what any of this meant…
It basically implies that they cobbled together some standard technology but they didn’t even put it together very well.
It’s like a solution that’s held in place with chewing gum and Band-Aids.
The “login” was actually a browser based remote access tool. You were signing in on a machine on there network running Chrome.
Someone dumped the contents of that machine.
lmao threatening action against their own imminent irrelevance, more like
Not cool guys, not cool at all
And get serious - fuck your “proprietary” details, fuck lying/misrepresentation for money, and fuck you for trying a stunt like this.
Call me when you actually put the genie in the bottle!
I defend a lot of misunderstood ai but this doesn’t have any good qualities even if it wasn’t a scam
An app that would require root access to fully operate. It is designed to run and use apps automatically. Large Action Mode, I think. Easiest way to get this out is a standalone device
I may not fully understand the situation, but AOSP offers an API called Accessability that allows an app to hook and modify how the user interacts with the UI. the best example is probably Talkback.
•Rabbit Inc. is unhappy about details of its tech stack being public, threatening action against unauthorized emulators.
All android devices are “emulators” like their hardware isn’t special
lol at calling running Android an “emulator”.
Also don’t they have to distribute the actual code for the OS if it’s lightly altered Android?
Having seen what this device does, they may not even have had to alter anything to the base AOSP image. Just set your app as the launcher and you’re good to go.
Depends on which part is altered. Lots of Linux distros are just curated collections of software, drivers, and configuration. You can easily achieve your OS goals without touching the code of the base distro at all. If they didn’t need to modify the base code then there’s nothing to distribute back. That would be like distributing your personal OS power user config settings. If you’re not touching source there’s nothing to contribute.
AOSP is fully Apache-2.0 licensed except for the Linux kernel, so only their kernel changes would have to be. It’s also an important reason why Android was/is so successful.
My understanding is that if you only add modules on top, those can stay closed source. It’s possible the AOSP portion of the stack is still stock and untouched.
I don’t know, one of the reasons they’re decrying everyone running the APK is they claim they’ve made a bunch of “bespoke alterations” to the AOSP version they’re using
Which may or may not be BS intended to save their reputation. I hear you though.
