I think gamers as a whole, though specifically those in niche communities, need to take a long and hard look at themselves. We should celebrate the volunteers that create wonderful content for us, generally with no financial gain. Instead, commonly, there are communities that criticize and tear down every little thing they can think of. They even went as far as to doxx the poor woman. We need to be better, and we need to hold these kind of toxic trolls accountable. Especially those of us who are men, we have a responsibility to call out other men who mistreat women in the gaming industry, or gaming in general.
*Edit: I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all. My sentiment is that many of us do not think about this kind of thing, and less are willing to speak out against their friends. We need to be better about that as a whole. I appreciate you as a person if you are already of this mindset.
Good for her for making the right decision for her own wellbeing. Too many sad little fucks on the Internet who spend all their time harassing others. Pathetic existence.
Fuck you for bringing sex into this. Fans should not harass volunteers as basic courtesy, the end. Most importantly because the modder wasn’t harassed for being a female but because her work, but you can’t get clicks unless you mobilise the culture war fanatics. American culture wars are pervasive and cancerous and we should strive not to emulate what goes on in that late stage capitalism hellhole.
Considering the woman being harassed explicitly stated that the harassment she received was mainly misogynistic in nature, no. It very much is relevant to the situation.
No shit sherlock, as opposed to what? Polite gender neutral harassment that is the norm? Do you think the damzel in distress trope does anything for the mod author? Do you think the idiots that harassed her would not harass an author of different sex or gender?
Don’t you have some female modders to harass?
I’m an equal opportunity hater, I don’t discriminate. Of course, I’m not American so I understand that non discrimination is a hard to grasp concept overseas.
Discrimination is just American?
You are the champions of the western world
quick question what languages do america, mexico, brazil and haiti speak?
This is a weird and popular trope with various European countries that hold themselves above others. Somehow things like racism and bigotry are purely an American phenomenon, usually said alongside spewing some sort of bigoted vitriol like this guy.
Well that felt unkind. The distinction between male and female is being made because the modder states men are sexually harassing her. There are other forms of harrassment listed, but it seems reasonable to make a distinction since there is a sexual nature to part of it.
Quite literally in the article, the first reddit link points to a female user disliking what the mod author did with Daegon. Again, bringing sex into this does nothing but generate clicks. There is an online community that always goes too far in the harassment of PEOPLE, as experienced by modders, devs, et al from all the ticks in the spectrum of sexuality since the dawn of social media. That’s it.
while i understand the sentiment, I don’t think anyone gets the nickname “slutty sex kitten” in a non gendered reason.
i mean i suppose it’s still gendered but i can assure you there are tons of gay male couples doing that
Thing is, her identifying as a woman has 0 to do with the harassment. I get that clicks get food on the table, but it’s always the same BS disingenuous framing.
This isn’t even about gaming, necessarily.
Girls who code are rare. There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female. And a hell of a lot more men.
And I’m in a progressive city in a progressive state.
I work in IT, and I think there is one woman out of 50 employees on my corner of the org chart, and that’s the CIO’s admin assistant.
I’m certain it’s culture, and it doesn’t just go for programming, it goes for almost all of STEM. There was a recent “Stuff You Should Know” episode about toy chemistry sets, and they made it a point to talk about the marketing, and how it always was with boys, for boys. My son, 8 year old kid, says “that’s just wrong! Girls can do all that stuff!”. He’s got it figured out.
There are probably more AFAB coders at my work than those who identify as female.
Did you get this backwards?
No…but I am being hyperbolic. I definitely interface with more transmasc and nonbinary coders than I do with cisgender female coders. This may also be because, again, cultural reasons.
There certainly are more cisgender female coders, but they are still a minority group by a big amount, and they tend to not draw much attention to themselves.
I was asking because the usual stereotype is than many younger programmers are transfemme.
Which does not reflect my experience in the working world at all.
That’s fair, I was just making sure I read you right. 💜
As a welder, I’ve had a female coworker ONCE in 15 years working in the industry. My current work doesn’t even have a bathroom for women in the same building as most of the workers. If we did hire a female welder, she’d have to walk across the parking lot to the administration building to actually use a women’s bathroom.
This broad dynamic isn’t new and it isn’t unique either to gaming or to men. Every single creative volunteer community on the net is filled with assholes and drama llamas, of any and all genders. It’s just the nature of the thing. You see the same things over and over with game modding, cracking, romhacking, emulation, manga scanlation, anime fansubbing, vocaloid production, mmd modeling, fanfic, fanart, and so on and on.
People often (generally?) are willing to invest the time and energy into whatever it is that they’re going to post online at least in large part because they crave the attention they hope it will bring, and specifically, they want to be lauded for their talent and skill.
And that often runs up against the fact that an awful lot of the responses they’re going to get are going to come from self-absorbed and entitled assholes bitching because they don’t like whatever it is that they’re getting for free, and think they have to be accommodated.
And very often, the response from the creator, unsurprisingly really, is to effectively (or even literally) say, “Fine then - fuck you all. I’m done.”
And 'round and 'round it goes, and has from the start, and likely will never stop. It’s just an unfortunate but pretty much inevitable clash between a personality type that’s likely to create and share something online for free and a personality type that’s likely to comment on something somebody else created and shared with them for free.
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but I feel that it is important to recognize and call out the misogyny element in this story
I don’t.
I think that countering misogyny with misandry is rather obviously a losing strategy.
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I don’t want to hammer on this really, because I think you mean well, but…
You’re not condemning the specific assholes who treated you poorly - you’re condemning “men” generally. Your point and your focus isn’t that they were assholes, but that they were men, as if that’s the actual problem - as if their failure isn’t being assholes, but simply being men.
I don’t know if that’s your actual view, but that is the way it comes across. And broadly, that view is part of the problem, since it alienates men who deserve no blame and diverts attention from those who do. And that’s exactly what I meant when I said that countering misogyny with misandry is a poor strategy.
After reading the article, I’m not entirely on her side, most people don’t want to be cucked in a videogame since it probably brings up bad memories. The mod didn’t release like that, she kept going in that direction and people voiced their disdain.
It is bad enough having gamers online foaming at the mouth like you just stabbed their mom when you make a mistake in a group.
i’m sorry that you have to deal with the outfall of this, OP. gamers are notoriously the most overly sensitive group to generalize, even when they’re meant to think “i recognize that this is pointing out bad apples in my community”. instead, they immediately start defending themselves as if you specifically named them
the sane response is to go “wow that is awful. the gaming community does indeed contain some terrible people, i am glad to be one of the good ones and will distance myself from this behavior”
the sane response is to go “wow that is awful. the gaming community does indeed contain some terrible people, i am glad to be one of the good ones and will distance myself from this behavior”
I’d say the saner response is none at all. This seems like a pretty niche community issue somewhere on the internet involving at most <100 people. I doubt anyone here is closer then 3 degrees of separation from anyone involved. Why would you expect any of the outsiders here to “take a stand,” based on incomplete information?
Yes, but how many of these niche communities are there? Hell, lemmy itself is a niche community and everybody here should take a stand against this sort of stuff occurring here.
On here I’d 100% agree, though if some member here got into some kind of discord drama that you weren’t apart of, why would you choose a side? You’ll have incomplete information, and no doubt one of them will claim they were harassed while leaving out some important details.
I don’t want you to feel like you’re getting it from all sides but…
I apologize if I insinuated that all gamers are guilty of this kind of behavior, that was not my intention at all
You really gotta ignore those “not all gamers” type of posters. They are literally adding nothing to the conversation. If you are a normal person who doesn’t harass women only, then you should also be a normal person who doesn’t take offense when the community as a whole is criticized.
I always hate these kinds of responses. Let me just go to the extreme, would you say the same if someone made broad negative generalizations about a race?
Sad you’re being down voted for this. Generalizing a whole group like this is not OK and your point about race is completely valid. People saying things like “ah yes, gamer race” either can’t read or comprehend.
I wonder if we could get this guy to work if defeating misogynists online could earn him CoD points or something.
“Dad said mom was a b**** c*** w****? Shit, I’m about to hit prestige.”
This is literally the same argument being made by “thin blue line” apologists.
You can choose to work as a cop, you can’t really choose what you like to do as a pastime.
what do you mean lol were you born with a controller attached to your hands?
Lol you tried
¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I’ve had this conversation before. I knew going into it people would disagree, but I don’t only voice my opinion when others will agree.
This comment made my eyes roll out of my head.
To be fair, I assumed people would understand I don’t mean gamers as a whole are like this. I think we all have a responsibility, but I also think the majority of gamers (at least in my age group) are reasonable and show respect.
I see where you’re going with negative generalizations on race, but it’s a completely different ball field. I could probably think of many reasons why, but my main argument is that the general group of “gamers” have never had to face any real existential adversity. No one ever put us in chains, stole our children, etc. on the basis that we play games.
That’s why I said extreme. ;P
I actually had no problem with your initial post. My issue comes with the “if you have to say no all [thing] you’re part of the problem” or similar comments, like the one I responded to.
I have similar feelings about generalizations towards men, women, seniors, children, etc. though you normally only hear it about certain demographics.
It’s usually boils down to either “you know you’re not the problem so why do you dislike being bombarded with posts about you being bad” or “this persons feelings/groups feelings shouldn’t be invalidated, so we are going to invalidate yours instead.”
And again, to be clear, your post wasn’t the problem. You were very clear in what you meant, and followed up with clarification. My issue is that someone came in after the fact and decided to say “fuck those people.”
“Gamers” are also a group one elects to be a member of, while one is categorized into a race, sex or gender from birth. One is elective, the other is descriptive. No one chooses to be black, or white, or born with male or female genitalia, etc, etc. And a lot of negative views are often along the lines of a rare bad thing being more likely performed by a certain demographic being extrapolated to accuse that demographic of being dangerous or harmful in general (usually an out-group, though under some ideologies it’s only acceptable to have this view with a target perceived to be the in-group - as regards blame they essentially reverse the perceived in- and out-group roles).
To turn it around on you though, imagine we picked some other elective group (a hobby, a political or ideological leaning, that sort of thing) that you are likely to look positively upon (and maybe even be a member of) and did the same kind of thing. Let’s say…feminists? Would it be acceptable to accuse feminism or feminists of anything negative I can point to any group thereof doing, and if you aren’t one of the ones who actually does that then you should not take offense, right? Not feel defensive at all, not question or challenge the assertion at all, right?
Ah yes, the gamer race. I wish I could show this message to Adolph Reed.
no? how do you even think there’s a parallel there? gamer isn’t a race. there’s nothing essential about gaming. the parallel would be making generalizations about football fans. not a race.
“extreme”
yeah that’s not extreme; it just doesn’t follow. you still have to have an analog. you can’t just say whatever to make an argument in the extreme. that’s just strawmanning.
If you’re a woman keep your drinks covered around men. Responding not all men is pointless even tho I’m a man and I don’t think women should be afraid of me but I get it that they could be and the person that could help change this the most is me and men not women.
And again this is a pointless tangent to the original statement.
As a man who grew up listening their ever perpetually single mom constantly complain about how all men are shit, this comment is the the influence I need to see more of coming from more people who are also men.
I’m constantly trying to be better all the time. I just feel like I don’t know how not to get offended by generalizations that I know don’t apply to me but the more I see other guys say stuff like what you just said, it kinda helps because just seeing them say it makes me want to adopt that mentality and get out if the one that if I fall under a group that receives criticism my feelings are hurt.
You gotta have some more self awareness, man. Stop trying to please those who are always complaining, and just be a good person for the sake of being a good person. Don’t do things to gain favor in the eyes of others.
And if you’re not part of the problem (i.e. you’re not a total piece of shit), then those complaints don’t apply to you anyway. If someone comes up to you and starts blaming you for societal problems simply because you’re a man… that’s someone you don’t wanna be involved with anyway.
I’ve lived by that first paragraph my whole life, I just meant how hard it is to not feel like someone is blaming me personally, or including me when they say a thing about men, just because I’m a man too. And btw, I’ve been not involved with that toxic parent since I was 26 (I’m 32 now)
Like idk how to not to let my feelings be hurt that women would rather encounter a bear than me when I’m trying to be the change I want to see in the world.
I talked to my girlfriejd about it and she said “yeah well you’re not one of those men in the scenario, you have no reason to be offended, you’re one of the good ones” and logically I know shes right, and I appreciated hearing that.
I just gotta see how other men keep from getting offended so easily so I can learn from them
I’m 36 and I’m not hurt by it at all. I completely understand why so many women would choose the bear. I also have three daughters (including a teenager), so I guess that helped to put things into perspective for me, but still… There are, unfortunately, a lot of men who have sexually assaulted women, and because men are the “default” in a lot of authority positions, it’s easy for men like that to assume that everyone wants what they want, including sexual advances; no matter how minimal.
Like I said - if you’re not the kind of man that does this kind of thing, great, but you gotta let it roll off your back. The complaints are legitimate, and I’ll bet your gf has experienced it herself. My wife has, and even my ex-wife has as well.
I’ll give you a tip: Instead of asking “how do I not feel offended”, ask yourself (and you could ask your gf as well) “how can I help to make the situation better?” It’s absolutely an uncomfortable situation, and acknowledging it goes a long way.
Man, thank you, and I appreciate you for taking the time to type all that out. I agree with everything i just read.
Since you mentioned it, you’re right my gf is unfortunately a victim of rape.
I’m gonna remember your tip and use it always.
Those generalizations are harmful indeed and should not be tolerated as it breeds Us vs. Them mentality. Just asking the person not to be offended when they have every right to be with “if you are not part of the problem” is the modernized “I am not racist, but” and “No, I meant the other type of foreigners, not you”. Misandry is a thing. Just because one comes from a misogynistic surrounding, doesn’t mean other experiences are suddenly not real.
People bound by unhinged radical feminists, and I do mean the Crazy-Karen-On-Video crowd, mutter every other second a misandric sentence. Of course this crap erodes your self-worth. You are literally being demeaned for absolutely nothing. Speak up to shut them up. If women find the energy to speak against harmful notions like, so should everyone else, if they see inacceptably demeaning behaviour which differs fundamentally from appropriate criticism.
If you are not part of the problem - it should not offend you, so that generalization is ok, because tbh a lot of us need to stop and think.
“I poured many years of my life into this, just to feel empty. In quitting, I have found my real passion, and have been obsessively working on music. I’ve even released my first ever album, SPIDERWEB PRINCESS, which is filled with my darkest, most genuine feelings from all of my experiences. Nothing I’ve ever done has ever been so meaningful to me. I have so much of myself to share with the world, and I’d much rather be remembered for something I actually enjoy.”
Apparently her new passion is music. SPIDERWEB PRINCESS
Thank you for showing me this, she rocks.
Yeah it’s pretty neat.
Welcome to the world of making software for random people, almost certainly made worse by she being a woman.
As others pointed out, most people do appreciate it, but they tend to be silent about it, whilst a small minority are demanding little whinny bitches (in a non-gendered way) who think they’re owed service and some are even trolls.
To those reading this, I suggest when you get something you like for free you at least give some feedback that you liked it and, if the person has some kind of sponsoring scheme going on and you really like it, consider contributing, if only to incentivise more of the same.
Those on the other side are people too and they will appreciate it.
Welcome to the world of making software for random people, almost certainly made worse by she being a woman.
I first read this and thought you were saying the software was almost certainly made worse and got all indignant then parsed it a second time and relaxed
I think gaming is too mainstream like television/movie viewers to lump it into some type of niche group/activity these days. Especially with the increased communication and connectivity that the internet provides that brings all sorts of wanted and unwanted people together.
I’m someone who enjoys gaming, and when I play games like The Finals these days I disable chat/voice because most people are assholes. Game previously didn’t have chat and enabling that turned it from what felt like a wholesome community because I wasn’t exposed to their thoughts to it breaking the illusion when they were able to express themselves.
I think this is more a more broad societal issue and a worrying one of being shown what people truly think. Even a minority is a huge amount when the population is billions, so a lot of damage can be done. Games is just another avenue they choose to be toxic in along side other vehicles provided to communicate their thoughts.
the boob jiggle physics are genuinely ridiculous on this mod, i just watched the preview. gamers are brain broken
A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it.
-Agent K
- Michael Scott
A rather astute observation found in an unlikely place, and one of my favorite move lines of all times.
Thousands of hours, months of hard work. For about 300 bucks and a bunch of incels doxxing and harassing her.
I cannot fathom why she left.
This is the sexism that we saw come out during the election. We thought the country was getting better but they were just quietly simmering but connecting online.
I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.
We thought the country was getting better
Who the hell thought the country was getting better? No one I know. This is the same weak basket of deplorables excuse the DNC used for Hillary Clinton’s loss. Because they’ll blame anyone but themselves for their failures.
The Democrats fail because they’ve embraced grinding neoliberalism for an entire generation, because they abandoned the working class long ago. The DNC crushed Sanders—twice—because even a little social safety net, as a treat, is a bridge too far for them. Why the Democratic Party CANNOT and WILL NOT be Reformed
I said that with an American slanted focus but sadly it’s worldwide too.
Fascism isn’t on the rise in the US in particular and the West in general for no reason. The cause is ever-worsening neoliberalism, which is monopoly capitalism in decay. I wrote about this two months ago, but I’ll spare everyone the copypasta and just link to it.
I did, for one
This is where my brain went, too. Even looking at this Lemmy thread. 6 of the 10 most upvoted top level comments (including THE most upvoted) are “not meee”, “not alllll men”, defensive crap or “well she should have just…” and “even men have to deal with it toooo” like damn. We ARE fucked.
It’s almost like people ignore men’s issues and scapegoat them at every opportunity for the sake of women.
If men had said they picked the bear it would have been framed as misogyny.
Case in point. Some dude just got murdered by the cops cuz the home invader was a woman and the cops saw a man fighting a woman and shot the man by default.
Men will never ever get the benefit of the doubt, but when we try to demand it we are just crybabies.
It’s almost like people ignore men’s issues and scapegoat them at every opportunity for the sake of women.
Men will never ever get the benefit of the doubt, but when we try to demand it we are just crybabies.
Welcome to society. Frankly, it’s malagency (mis-assignment of agency, specifically in a fashion that often makes men responsible for things that happen to them even when they really aren’t and often absolves women of that responsibility when they really should have it) all the way down.
Malagency as a lens predicts reality better than a lot of other gender focused lenses. “What would happen if women are believed to be less responsible for what happens than they really are and men are believed to be more responsible for what happens than they really are?” tends to map to reality better than “What would happen if everything in society were created by men to benefit men at the expense of women and to oppress women?” Especially once you stop looking narrowly at the top few percent of men, where the two lenses give similar results.
and the cops saw a man fighting a woman and shot the man by default.
Something like 95% of people shot by police are men. This of course is not discriminatory on the grounds that men are evil, violent savages unlike every other group that are disproportionately shot by police who are innocent victims of oppression.
