This isn’t your college or work place break room. If people are saying something you disagree with you can just say it and you won’t be fired or ostracized for it. Yeah, people will probably get angry and say mean things to you but those are just words which can be ignored. Offence is taken, not given.
This is mostly for the lurkers who upvote unpopular opinions but don’t comment. You can speak up - you’re not alone.
won’t be fired or ostracized for it.
Wanna bet?
Of course you can. You’re not free from consequences of what you said though. The internet remembers EVERYTHING. Especially on federated platforms like lemmy. Some of my first messages on newsgroups in the 1990’s are still floating around the internet.
As is what you up voted.
Although, what are the odds someone goes to the length to match writing style and personal details that you let slip while using a pseudonymous account against an online presence where you are identifiable?
I’m sure it’s possible, especially if there’s a reason you might be targeted, but I imagine it’s still pretty challenging and time consuming
That’s old style thinking. If that type of matching isn’t already automated and running, it will be soon. They’ll click a button and find you everywhere if you’ve left enough breadcrumbs, so there won’t be any lengths to go to. And as someone who has gone through the cybersec exercises of hardening browsers against fingerprinting, knows what VPN can do and more importantly what it CAN’T do, etc, I can say there are precious few people in the world going to the lengths required to stay truly anonymous. It basically has to become your top priority and constant focus if you want to be successful.
I guess a better question then - when is the juice worth the squeeze?
Like, I’m sure that government agencies have an interest in tracking who is making what comments pseudonymously online, but it would take a lot of effort, computers, money, energy, etc to constantly scan and store information for everyone, right?
Which is where we get into different levels of security - I’m going to try harder to hide my identity if I were to pirate a movie vs browsing Wikipedia.
I guess the question is: who is motivated to collect what information, and what needs to be done to make that identifying information useless for them to connect the dots?
but it would take a lot of effort, computers, money, energy, etc to constantly scan and store information for everyone, right?
You are describing PRISM and it’s been running since 2007.
When they realized how much storage it was going to take the US Government built the UDC at Camp Williams in Utah.
Well shit.
For the government, it’s always worth it as long as the funding is flowing. After all, it’s not like they are footing the bill. You and I are paying for them to spy on us.
Never say anything you aren’t willing to stand behind. Because it won’t go away. And with authoritarian regimes coming to power… you gotta be cognizant of the potential consequences
But generally, I agree with you. The further we get away from groupthink the better we are for it. When we self-censor out of fear of disapproval we are perpetuating the cycle and making it more likely the next person doesn’t speak their mind.
Just because everyone believes something is right, does not mean it is. The majority has been wrong in the past and it will be wrong in the future.
For the past 10 years or so I’ve pretty much assumed that at some point a superintelligent AI or similar will be able to find everyone’s online profiles and link them to the actual person behind them. Then we’ll all be held accountable for the things we’ve said in the past. That’s why I never lie or say something I don’t actually believe in. I’m not proud of every comment I’ve posted but those are my actual beliefs and what ever people will be able to dig up I can stand behind and explain reasoning.
thats why I lie and obfuscate all the time and I don’t all the time as well. I do try to curtail my sarcastic inclinations as the internet is just getting wierd. You gotta take everything from the internet with a grain of salt. Fact is in a free society there should be no criminal consequence to speech. So guy shoots guy and yes criminal system gets involved but someone says hey thats a great thing then no it should not and if it does then yeah the shooting makes a super a lot of sense.
yeah it’s a weird time. over in England during the anti-immigrant riots some people got sent to jail for inciting violence for some twitter messages. If you actually read the messages and compare it to the rhetoric coming out of many people about this CEO, many people would be sent to jail if we were following the same standard.
obviously the US is not England and we have free speech protections- but people really should exercise caution
this is why im such a free speech absolutist. things not in the physical realm should have consequences not in the physical realm. like unpopularity or derersion. real life consequences should be for real life actions.
things not in the physical realm should have consequences not in the physical realm
I mean, it depends. I think the current laws in the US are more or less fine.
For example, if I send you a death threat through an online message, it should be equivalent to me sending you a death threat in any other fashion.
So I’m not a total absolutist, but I am a strong free-speech proponent.
I think saying something like “i believe all [plural form of random ethnic slur] should be brutally murdered” is an expression of a belief. it’s a horrific belief, yes, but it’s a belief. I think it constitutes as free speech and therefore the government cannot prosecute
however let’s say I’m a musician at a concert and i see a guy in the crowd and point and yell to the crowd “hey everybody, attack that [singular form of ethnic slur] and rip his [religious apparel] off” - that isn’t a belief. that is an incitement to violence.
that should be a crime.
in England, both the first and the 2nd are crimes. here in the US, it’s only the 2nd
Well your example is different. If a mob boss orders a hit on someone then yes it should be the same as if they did it themselves. Same with your concert guy directing people to attack someone. I actually do not see online as different than print or actual speech or whatnot. they are all speech to me. If a musician says we need to kill all the homos then folks should stop going to their concerts and if someone says what we should really do is kill that musician for his homophonbic beliefs, I think thats his right. If he says I want you to go and kill that muscician right now then that is not ok. I feel instructing people to do things goes into the action category.
I feel instructing people to do things goes into the action category.
exactly. that’s how US law works. in England, the state has much broader powers to arrest you depending on your speech. Like for example, the first statement I made
“i believe all [plural form of random ethnic slur] should be brutally murdered”
a very similar post on twitter got someone sentenced to 2 years in jail over in England just a few months ago. let search around and find the direct quote…
i found it
“Mass deportation now, set fire to all the fucking hotels full of the bastards for all I care… If that makes me racist, so be it”
My interpretation is that this is a belief. He didn’t explicitly instruct anyone to do anything. He said, in other words - “if people set fire to all the muslim immigrants, i wouldn’t care” or basically “i would be happy with people setting fire to all muslim imimgrants”
in England, that’s a crime. in the US, you have to be much more explicit. You have to
a) specifically instruct people to do something “everyone, attack that person in the red hat”
b) hold the belief that your statement has a real chance to followed. so for example, if you right now say “hey kava, beat your wife” you almost certainly could not be charged in the US because a reasonable person would not immediately beat their wife because of a statement like that
c) it has to be immediate - so you have to say something and it happen in the very near future. so if you write “let’s stab all the [ethnic slurs]” and then someone reads that 3 months into the future- you can’t be held liable.
So I believe the US laws, in this case, are so much better than English laws.
The US does a lot of shit wrong. So many things. But on speech? I think best in the world.
edit: there’s more on this topic if you’re interested: https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/brandenburg_test
You can be fired for what you say if it is linked back to you. That actually happens pretty regularly
Well, sure if you’re posting with your own name but not when you’re posting as MrPoopbutt.
This is often patently false
Your anonymity will only hold until you have pissed of someone dedicated to track you down.
And some people do not need much information to do just that. Stories online include finding a location based on the reflection in someones eye or finding a address in London based on a single picture of the window taken from the inside.
Of course you can just not post real pictures and be careful with any details but just the topics you talk on and the hours you are active can give you away.
In the end it doesn’t matter how much actual effort you put in obscuring your real identity, one slip up being found is enough to get the ball rolling. And if people hate you they will gladly keep it rolling.
Sure, but this is true about being online in general and not only relevant to the people saying unpopular things.
It’s also the reason I keep making new accounts when ever I reach 1k comments. Better not have all the eggs in one basket.
Don’t make fun of him, it’s a family name.
I heard op of this post is the actual shooter in the murder of the Brian Thompson case. Sources say he went mad after his claim to be turned into a cat e girl was denied by united
Source-trust me bro
Nice try FBI
During the Bush jr years, I told a coworker that I’d realized that I better start being more mindful about what I posted online. They replied that free speech was their primary marker of liberty and I felt kinda silly.
As we go into a new Trump admin, I am again reminded that I should be mindful what I post because now it’s really gonna go to shit. That asshole plans to weaponize everything. Hence, why I plan on emigrating to a better society.
I do note that OP spelled “offence” the British way. They have less risk of being targeted by lunatics. I’m somewhat hyperbolic is suggesting that I’m moving for safety, but there were also a bunch of people who left Germany and didn’t end up dead. And because I’m not unaware of what I’m saying: see also, Godwin’s law.
That’s patently false.
Ironically one of the first comments I saw in this post was “deleted by a moderator.” I guess that person doesn’t get to say whatever they want.
Lemmy is only pseudonymous and is a bit of an echo chamber. Lots of things you write or otherwise share on the Internet (here or elsewhere) can come back to haunt you.
They did get to say what they wanted to, tho. Then it was deleted by someone else. I could say something that breaks the rules if I really wanted to. I would just have my comment removed and get banned 🤷🏻♂️
On the other hand, no one is obligated to listen to you, and freedom of speech does not equal freedom from the consequences of said speech. If you voice an unpopular opinion, be prepared to not be popular.
Absolutely. In-fact I’d say most people aren’t blocking enough. If someone thinks of free speech as freedom to be an asshole then they should be blocked by everyone and left to shout into the void. However, I don’t think the unpopularity follows you outside the thread you were saying unpopular things at. The vast majority of people wont remember you.
Ironic to find someone saying this on Lemmy. It’s a miserable echo chamber here.
That’s why I’m saying it. I often feel like I’m in the minority of people willing to speak up and get dogpiled for it. I posted this for the handful of people who upvote those comments.
I can’t see down votes so I have nothing to lose!
Lol sounda like it bro’s first time online
I’d rather be new and decent than experienced and dismissive - thank you for the perspective.
If people are saying something you disagree with you can just say it and you won’t be fired or ostracized for it.
But you can be banned which is pretty much the online equivalent to being fired or kicked out of school.
Also ostracized…
I literally just blocked another troll before seeing this post, that’s literally ostracizing.
It was a 4 day old account too, so in all likelihood they were ostracized before, it was a negative consequence, and if it continues to happen. Maybe someday they won’t immediately be a troll on a new account.
But if normal people do that, the trolls only get replies from each other and that’s not fun for them.
So many assumptions in this one just lol
Individual users blocking other users isn’t what I mean by being ostracized. If the majority of users did then maybe so but that basically never happens no matter what you say. Being blocked by someone comes at no cost to the person getting blocked. They won’t even know.
And then because it’s lemmy, you can make a new account on a different instance. Just pretend to be someone else.
On lemmy, you don’t even need to pretend to be be someone else.
Or the same instance. You can also import your settings and continue from where you left.
Egg shells hate this one simple trick
Pineapple is allowed on pizza
So are anchovies
Fuck the haters, pineapple pizza is delicious.
You disgust me
That’s the spirit!
On the internet you can just freely say what you really think even if you know it’s unpopular.
This advice is SUPER dependent on where you live. People in the Middle East have been executed for saying the wrong thing on the Internet. People in the UK have been imprisoned for saying the wrong thing online. Criticize social policy or Government in China and its quite possible you’ll be off to prison.
Even in the good Ol’ USA there’s limits to how free your speech can be online.
in minecraft
A fine specimen
Yeah, people will probably get angry and say mean things to you but those are just words which can be ignored. Offence is taken, not given.
This is naïve. The no one likes being insulted and downvoted for expressing their views. Sure, it doesn’t bother some people as much as others, but it’s not a conscious choice to “just ignore it,” as though that will prevent any negative feelings. The reality is that people with unpopular views stay silent to avoid these consequences, and that’s an entirely rational choice. You would do better to spend your time chastising people who attack those with unpopular views than to try to convince those with unpopular views to willingly expose themselves to online abuse.
I agree. I didn’t quite mean it as “you can just ignore it” but rather that “understand it’s just words and you can learn to not take it personally”
I say plenty of unpopular things here myself and though I have downvotes disabled I can still feel the pain when being dogpiled on despite having years of experience with it. No one is immune to it - we just have different levels of tolerance.
If people are saying something you disagree with you can just say it and you won’t be fired or ostracized for it. Yeah, people will probably get angry and say mean things to you but those are just words which can be ignored.
What is the purpose, then? If I can’t ignore others, others can ignore you. This only lead to useless, unsatisfactory, unproductive and dumb arguments with random people on internet.
Freedom to speak doesn’t imply freedom to be heard. People are free to ignore you even when you’re saying popular things. If you don’t want to speak unless everyone is listening, then don’t.
Fair point, totally agree.
I would probably argue the opposite. What is the purpose of a community where no actual discussions are had, and people just look at and upvote memes?
You can always find a community where respectful discussion is allowed and encourage, and if you can’t, you can create it. Not all places are mean to debate.
And people just really like memes.
