I have been thinking a lot since the election about what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking, or really any kind of high level rational thought or analysis.
Then I stumbled on this post https://old.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16ires5/lead_exposure_from_shooting_is_a_much_more/
Which essentially explains that “Shooting lead bullets at firing ranges results in elevated BLLs at concentrations that are associated with a variety of adverse health outcome"
I looked at the pubmed abstract in that Reddit post and also this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5289032/
Which states, among other things, “Workers exposed to lead often show impaired performance on neurobehavioral test involving attention, processing, speed, visuospatial abilities, working memory and motor function. It has also been suggested that lead can adversely affect general intellectual performance.”
Now, given that there are well in excess of 300 million guns in the United States, is it possible lead exposure at least partially explains how brain dead many Americans seem to be?
This is a genuine question not a troll and id love to read some evidence to the contrary if any is available
lol no.
This guy leads!
Your joke is highly diverting me, thanks!
My aunt spent a long time working in education in the USA, much of it in leadership roles. When she incorporated lessons on critical thinking into the curriculum, it resulted in a lot of pushback from parents who did not appreciate their kids applying the lessons at home.
People who actively resist the use of critical thinking will seem cognitively impaired because they are, in fact intentionally impairing their cognition. My intuition here is to blame religious fundamentalism, but that’s not a well-researched position.
A lot of parental pushback comes from frustration over the Dunning-Kruger effect, where somebody who learns a little about a subject feels like an expert. This is often where kids are at. If you keep studying the same material you realize how much you don’t know, which tends to make you feel ignorant, but as you continue you get better at gauging what level you’re at. A lot of it is a matter of maturity. Some parents don’t mind that the kids are learning new things, they just aren’t very good at parenting it. Highly religious people are more likely to see outside information and analyticals skills as a threat, because yeah they are - for good reason lol.
100%
“We are already providing all the answers you will ever need.” -religion
Organized religion is, fundamentally — at its very core — based on rejecting critical thought; to “just have faith” in the unknown/unknowable.
It is in no way surprising that it’s incompatible with advanced science/evidence-based civilization.
Fundamentalism is certainly a contributing factor, but there are others. Conservatives have been working to cut back on education since the early 80’s. Removing critical thinking training was one of the objectives… Conservative policies are unpopular and are often supported with misrepresentations and outright lies. To succeed, they need a public without the knowledge or skills to realize their arguments are invalid. Unfortunately, they have gone a long way toward accomplishing that.
Religion is a major component I’m sure but overall parents probably don’t want their ideals and norms challenged in their own house. This is probably why people (on the right) say that college liberalized their kids. No, college teaches you how to think and pursue answers to your own questions. Not our fault your ideals are based on tradition and ignorance.
Yeah man. When that kid starts asking questions and challenging the family norms, that’s the teacher’s fault for making their life harder. It isn’t a sign that the parent needs to adapt.
Adapting IS a pain in the ass. Some parents don’t have the faculties to do it. Some do, but don’t after getting done with work. It is truely a generational trauma that the parent has to head off in themselves for it to carry to early aged kids.
This is from the Texas GOP 2012 education platform.
“We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority.”
They backtracked on critical thinking after the outrage it caused with this
- Munisteri told KVUE, "The platform plank is against a specific type of teaching called ‘outcome-based education.’
"The reason why critical thinking is mentioned is some places try to disguise the program of outcome-based education and just re-label it as ‘critical thinking.’ "
“Good Christian kids need fear-based learning, like we had!”
I got a wooden spatula that’s great for creating fear!
I see where you are going, but you probably should focus less on the guns. Most Americans don’t regularly shoot guns, even those that have them. A whole lot also don’t own any. But lead is all over in shit like water pipes. Other heavy metals and chemicals are present in higher levels than allowed elsewhere. Also full metal jacket is much more common than it used to be which reduces the lead particles when shooting.
As far as lead water pipes go, they’re not nearly as dangerous as they’re made out to be. The lead quickly bonds to things in the water creating a layer of corrosion which means the lead doesn’t really get in the water.
Don’t get me wrong, they should still all be replaced.
Pretty sure it’s much more prevalent than would be tied specifically to gun use as a catalyst, though…
Is it possible? Yes
Could it at least in part explain some behaviour? Yes.
But the missing question really is how much, and the answer is probably infitessimally small even if Real.
For lead exposure there are far easier and more common ways to get exposed such as lead pipes (which the US has a lot of).
But also you’d have to establish that the underlying problem is brain damage, and that is probably not true and instead reflects cultural bias.
There are many other reasons to explain American culture and behaviour which does not default to brain damage (or at least provable brain damage).
I would look at social and cultural issues first: an extremely weak political system, a poor quality general education system, high levels of religion, poor quality general health care, high levels of inequality including shocking levels of poverty.
The problem with the US is the extremes - if you have money you have the best the world can offer; if you don’t then the state provision is shockingly poor. But alot of the crazies are also rich, and that comes down to the culture and society.
Lead poisoning is the least likely explanation, and is almost wishful thinking to try and explain things as a disease rather than normal human nature.
COVID causes brain damage too. We largely don’t mask anymore like even in doctor’s offices, or worse hospitals. I think COVID has done a large amount of damage in a short time.
Lead, namely in its poor infrastructure and in old recipes that have survived to the present day, was also cited for the peoples’ issues in the Roman Empire, discussed in contexts as wide as the common medical deformities and the madness of emperors like Caligula (spoiler alert, he wasn’t actually mad, just creatively spiteful, e.g. his declaring war on Poseidon was to humiliate undisciplined soldiers). So this is not lead’s first rodeo. I would give the research more time.
That’s a very interesting hypothesis. For sure it affects it and there might be other chemicals that get combusted as well. Not sure if the quantity is the same as with leaded gasoline and I’m pretty sure the proportion of Americans that go to shooting ranges on a regular basis is pretty small. Interesting post regardless
At first glance I thought this post was a bit facetious, but after thinking about it and reviewing some research around people manufacturing the bullets and how it affects them and understanding that detonating them in confined spaces probably is just as if not more problematic. And if you have a job that requires you to do it often, say a cop, does that create even more of an effect? Lead exposure causes a loss of impulse control as well as intelligence effects. Could that be one reason why cops are so much more violent than the average person? I’d love to see a study on lead content of blood in cops, especially ones who murder people they capture, but unfortunately, the NRA is probably too powerful to allow that to happen. And conservatives hate masks, so I doubt it would be easy to convince cops to wear them while practicing.
I think far more people are exposed to lead in water than from guns. Even gun-owning Americans don’t go to the range that often.
That’s a good point, especially the fact the most people who own guns don’t shoot them that often, but re: lead in the water, hasn’t the issue of lead in water become less significant over time?
This post by New York City government states that actually construction work is the most common source of lead exposure for people in the city, followed by sketchy consumer products. https://a816-dohbesp.nyc.gov/IndicatorPublic/data-stories/adult-lead/#%3A~%3Atext=This+continued+drop+in+blood%2Cair%2C+paint+and+consumer+products.
Maybe just generally we’re not taking the adverse cognitive effects of lead exposure, whatever the source, seriously enough?
Edit: someone else in the comments made the connection between the high numbers of lead water pipes in Florida and the “Florida man” phenomenon. Maybe lead in the water is still way more significant of an issue than I thought
Lead pipes internally corrode through chemical reaction very quickly. Then the corrosion shields the water from the lead. They aren’t very dangerous.
You’re maybe not wrong, but I expect that even then the amount of lead and lead salts that gets in the water will be significantly higher than from non-lead pipes
Oh yeah, every lead water pipe everywhere should be replaced. I was just trying to say that the level of concern is way too high.
Also bear in mind that leaded gas was the norm til the mid 90s, so a lot of boomers and Gen X were exposed
was the norm
In the US, it was only banned from being sold in 1996, but it wasn’t the norm for long before that. The last model year that leaded gas was allowed for cars was 1974. Yes, all Boomers and most of Gen X would have had high exposure, but it would have been fading out by the time younger Gen Xers were born.
And yes there are some non-car applications of it that are still legal to this day, but the overall frequency of it would have dropped a ton well before the mid-90s. (Source, and actual graphs of the decline over time)
I think they are trying to phase out 100LL right now
They’re trying again. AvGas has always been more of a challenge, more resistant to change, but also a niche market segment. They were also trying twenty years ago when I did some flying, but progress has been glacial. Personally I always hoped we’d get new engines that could run on jet fuel, so avgas could just go away ( one of the things holding back general aviation is cost, and jet fuel is much cheaper). We should probably treat land near airports as contaminated, but there really aren’t many airports and the number continues to shrink
Holy shit. I gues lemmy is a pretty young place for you to say something so completely wrong and get so many upvotes for it. Most cars have been “unleaded gasoline only” since the mid to late 70"s.
Think about it. Do you think those cars from the 1990’s still on the road today have all had engine and fuel pump swaps on them to run unleaded? Heck no. Most all the cars you’re going to find from the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s all still say “unleaded fuel only” by the gas gauge. Most gas stations in the 1980’s didn’t even offer leaded gasoline.
This seems like reaching for the most esoteric and niche explanation to a fairly simple phenomenon.
America’s school system sucks, and the anti-authoritarian nature of a culture formed by rejecting monarchy has been coopted to convince people that science and reason are authority figures you ought to fight back against.
The vast majority of Americans aren’t gun owners, and the vast majority of gun owners don’t shoot very often. You haven’t provided evidence for Americans being incapable of critical thinking, but you want evidence for why guns aren’t the source of american stupidity.
This is a very silly post. 😅
Critical thinking isn’t taught in schools anymore. That’s the main problem.
Well, I’m sure the exposure from going to the shooting range is a lot smaller than this, but lead poisoning from leaded gasoline apparently had a measurable impact on IQ levels.
I 100 percent agree that the big problem of the educational system, though! It is also interesting how self-fulfilling the adversity to government has been: it has made it so easy for men with bad intentions to tear down an at least functional democracy by promising to “fix” it.
That makes complete sense to me, that’s a widespread systemic exposure; I’d kinda expect usage of leaded gasoline that to have that sort of impact
And yep, it sure is frustrating 🙃
I’m not sure why you think it’s esoteric or niche, there are something like 400 million guns in the US, with 1/3 of Americans directly owning at least one gun and 44% of us households having a gun owner. I think that’s pretty far from “the vast majority” not being gun owners https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx
Moreover, lead exposure is known to cause cognitive impairments. I do agree however that most gun owners don’t shoot very often.
But if you need me to cite evidence that millions of Americans seem incapable of critical thinking you are either trolling or just not paying attention.
Here’s an entire book on the subject in case that helps https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Critical-Thinking-Crisis-Education/dp/1735942200
Finally, I’m not sure how you could construe my question as wanting evidence that it isn’t guns causing the problem, I pretty clearly asked a question, provided some links to explain what I had read that led me to that question, and then welcomed contrary evidence, of which you cited none by the way.
A sample size of 1000 people isnt exactly huge to be fair.
I’d like to clarify- I wasn’t intending to be hostile, though I can see how it came across that way, and I apologize, I did a kind of shitty job of conveying my idea in a way that would connect with you. I think in online spaces it can be really hard to break the habit of making your point in a way that will register with bystanders rather than the person you’re ostensibly actually talking to. I did a great job at expressing my perspective in a way that would validate the confusion I think amercians are likely to experience reading this post (as reflected by the votes), but I did a kinda crap job of actually addressing you, sorry about that. I’ll do my best to be a little effective in communicating what I meant and why I felt that way.
As an American, this feels like a cartoonishly out of touch representation of the issues my country faces (which to be fair, would be entirely understandable if you don’t live here and don’t have any first-hand experience with the US). We have plenty of them (issues, that is), and there’s lots of discussion to be had on the impact of guns on society, and also from where I’m standing it seems like are far more probable explanations for people lacking critical thinking skills than that we all just shoot our rootin’ tootin’ guns all the time over here in yeehaw land, and so we all have lead poisoning from all the bullets we’re shooting’. (Not trying to build a straw man of things you didn’t say, my point is that it feels like an caricature, and not one that aligns with the experience I have actually living here)
To reach past “crappy educational system”, “weaponized anti-authoritarianism and individualism”, and even “lead from drinking water or gasoline”, or any number of other likely causes, to instead land on a caricature of American life feels a bit silly to me. Thats an acute risk associated with an activity most people don’t participate in, and that even the people who do participate in, don’t very often.
The book you linked appears to be about how the American educational system is conceptually flawed and approaches education in a way unlikely to yield meaningful critical thinking skills- a point I think I’d likely agree with it on. But to be fair, a book also isn’t actually a quantitative reflection of poor critical thinking skills. It wouldn’t totally suprise me if America did struggle with critical thinking, there are lots of possible reasons we might- and at the same time, it’s a little frustrating for someone foreign to my country to look from the outside and say “man, I wonder if they’re all dumb cause they have lead poisoning from shooting guns all the time” while providing evidence for the link between shooting and lead exposure (makes complete sense) but no evidence for the premise that we’re dumb; that part is just taken for granted.
It kinda feels like you’re asking if the caricature of us all shooting guns all the time is the reason for the caricaturization of us all being dumb. And in doing so, overlook much more systemic far-reaching explanations for how a nation might end up in a state where critical thinking skills are lacking.
I’m not wading into looking for evidence because the nature of these things is that it takes a looooot of evidence to dispute an idea that can be thrown out with only a little. My mental health is horrible and I don’t really have the energy for that at present 😅 I think lots of other folks have made valuable contributions to the discussion, but I didn’t see anyone speaking to the fact that this feels like it’s borne out of an outsiders perspective based mostly on an imaginary idea of what it’s like to live here.
I don’t expect my expressing that idea to change your mind, but I still think it has value for providing perspective and context to the things you’re considering. If you don’t actually know much about the US first-hand, it might not be apparent that folks in the US are unlikely to see that a realistic source of the problem you’re describing given the actual experience of living here.
All I really hope to add to the conversation is that perspective. Its fine if you don’t see it the same way that I do, to be totally honest sometimes there are instances where being immersed in or “too close” to something impairs your ability to see it clearly. Though I don’t think this is one of those times.
Sorry this is all over the place, I’m pretty spent and didn’t have it in me to edit further for clarity (or try to be succinct, as you can probably tell by the like 30 paragraphs where a couple of more carefully thought out ones might have sufficed.)
Bro started off talking about how Americans are incapable of critical thinking and proceded to write the rest of the post.
That’s a really interesting angle, I also wonder how much damage the lead in gasoline did before they banned it.
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I have literally fired a machine gun until liquid carbon is running down the gun and spraying on my face and I’ve likely had more lead from pipes and paint chips than anything else.
Source? I’d like to see the analysis please.
Your misstaking lead toxicity with religion.
Kind of, low level lead exposure does lead to higher aggression as well. I have yet to search out the paper, but I will do verification when I’m not at work
Edit: Found it https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160412022003658
Aggression is a side effect of lead exposure in both humans and mammalian species
I may be mistaken, but there was talk years ago about regulating lead bullets. They were to switch to steel ones and it caused a whole story about ammunition becoming more expensive and started a run on lead bullets. If true, wile there would be this collected leads ammo, steel would be more prolific. But there could be some other contaminate in shooting, or some other reason. But i fear that this is more of a problem of the human condition then any outside factor
Then is not than.
