I have been thinking a lot since the election about what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking, or really any kind of high level rational thought or analysis.
Then I stumbled on this post https://old.reddit.com/r/guns/comments/16ires5/lead_exposure_from_shooting_is_a_much_more/
Which essentially explains that “Shooting lead bullets at firing ranges results in elevated BLLs at concentrations that are associated with a variety of adverse health outcome"
I looked at the pubmed abstract in that Reddit post and also this one https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5289032/
Which states, among other things, “Workers exposed to lead often show impaired performance on neurobehavioral test involving attention, processing, speed, visuospatial abilities, working memory and motor function. It has also been suggested that lead can adversely affect general intellectual performance.”
Now, given that there are well in excess of 300 million guns in the United States, is it possible lead exposure at least partially explains how brain dead many Americans seem to be?
This is a genuine question not a troll and id love to read some evidence to the contrary if any is available
I doubt that there are enough people shooting enough guns often enough for it to be more than just trace exposures, it likely must be something else.
It’s regular old religion, shit culture, and propaganda just like it always is.
Don’t forget the deliberate effort by Republicans to nerf the public education system
Nerf is too nice a way to say it. They want to abolish the Department of Education. Their goal is that only the children of the rich will get anything close to a good education.
It’s by design. Keep people stupid, and use religion for its intended use, a tool for control.
We the masses are the foundation for their wealth and power.
Nailed it! Religion, shit culture and propaganda are all major sources of stupidity!
Plus, Gen-X and Boomers were exposed to a lot of lead.
Gasoline types used to be “Regular or Unleaded” and Regular, I think, and required a"special" engine.
Also fungicides/pesticides can cause dementia. One of the first signs of early onset dementia is loss of empathy. So not very surprising many old rural folks have become jaded people
Leaded (“regular”) gas will destroy a catalytic converter. A car without a cat could usually run leaded or unleaded. Some may knock running unleaded if they’re super old or broken in some way. I believe leaded was usually cheaper.
I wouldn’t try running leaded in a modern engine even if you removed the cats. God knows what else it would screw up.
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Yes it’s actually a pretty ignorant idea. Lead exposure is more likely from car exhaust from leaded gas, which has been severely limited since the 80s.
Lead paint in every house probably didn’t help
Most old lead paint just gets painted over, further sealing it in. It doesn’t do anything to you unless you chew on peeling paint or release it into the air by sanding it.
Or, you know, the lead that we put into the air for decades burning leaded gasoline…
Even though we’ve (mostly) stopped doing that, the effects are cumulative, and there are still plenty of people alive who were around when that was still a thing.
Somebody else in the comments said something very similar, I’lll paraphrase what I responded which is that I hadn’t really thought of that, and I’m starting now to come around to the notion that maybe even if there is some percentage of the population suffering the cognitive impairments associated with the adverse effects of lead, it’s probably more likely that they were exposed many years or decades ago vs recently
I may be mistaken, but there was talk years ago about regulating lead bullets. They were to switch to steel ones and it caused a whole story about ammunition becoming more expensive and started a run on lead bullets. If true, wile there would be this collected leads ammo, steel would be more prolific. But there could be some other contaminate in shooting, or some other reason. But i fear that this is more of a problem of the human condition then any outside factor
Then is not than.
lol no.
This guy leads!
Your joke is highly diverting me, thanks!
I think far more people are exposed to lead in water than from guns. Even gun-owning Americans don’t go to the range that often.
That’s a good point, especially the fact the most people who own guns don’t shoot them that often, but re: lead in the water, hasn’t the issue of lead in water become less significant over time?
This post by New York City government states that actually construction work is the most common source of lead exposure for people in the city, followed by sketchy consumer products. https://a816-dohbesp.nyc.gov/IndicatorPublic/data-stories/adult-lead/#%3A~%3Atext=This+continued+drop+in+blood%2Cair%2C+paint+and+consumer+products.
Maybe just generally we’re not taking the adverse cognitive effects of lead exposure, whatever the source, seriously enough?
Edit: someone else in the comments made the connection between the high numbers of lead water pipes in Florida and the “Florida man” phenomenon. Maybe lead in the water is still way more significant of an issue than I thought
Lead pipes internally corrode through chemical reaction very quickly. Then the corrosion shields the water from the lead. They aren’t very dangerous.
You’re maybe not wrong, but I expect that even then the amount of lead and lead salts that gets in the water will be significantly higher than from non-lead pipes
Oh yeah, every lead water pipe everywhere should be replaced. I was just trying to say that the level of concern is way too high.
Also bear in mind that leaded gas was the norm til the mid 90s, so a lot of boomers and Gen X were exposed
Holy shit. I gues lemmy is a pretty young place for you to say something so completely wrong and get so many upvotes for it. Most cars have been “unleaded gasoline only” since the mid to late 70"s.
Think about it. Do you think those cars from the 1990’s still on the road today have all had engine and fuel pump swaps on them to run unleaded? Heck no. Most all the cars you’re going to find from the 70’s, 80’s, and 90’s all still say “unleaded fuel only” by the gas gauge. Most gas stations in the 1980’s didn’t even offer leaded gasoline.
was the norm
In the US, it was only banned from being sold in 1996, but it wasn’t the norm for long before that. The last model year that leaded gas was allowed for cars was 1974. Yes, all Boomers and most of Gen X would have had high exposure, but it would have been fading out by the time younger Gen Xers were born.
And yes there are some non-car applications of it that are still legal to this day, but the overall frequency of it would have dropped a ton well before the mid-90s. (Source, and actual graphs of the decline over time)
I think they are trying to phase out 100LL right now
They’re trying again. AvGas has always been more of a challenge, more resistant to change, but also a niche market segment. They were also trying twenty years ago when I did some flying, but progress has been glacial. Personally I always hoped we’d get new engines that could run on jet fuel, so avgas could just go away ( one of the things holding back general aviation is cost, and jet fuel is much cheaper). We should probably treat land near airports as contaminated, but there really aren’t many airports and the number continues to shrink
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Leaded gas wasn’t fully stopped until 1996. Still in some aviation used (piston plane engines).
But yes I wonder about shooting ranges too. I think a couple times a year at an indoor range isn’t insignificant.
Yeah some of the replies have good points about lead damage being cumulative and showing up later, so maybe the workers in those studies I mentioned showed impairment because they were chronically exposed over some lengthy period and the impairments they measured were because of the cumulative exposure?
That also makes me think again though that, like you said, going to the indoor range a few times per year and not taking proper measures to clean oneself could cause some cumulative effect over time?
I mean check out this post where this person’s lead level was over 15 and decreased to 8 after a month of no shooting. Idk but reaching a blood lead level of 15 can’t be good right? Especially if you’re exposed repeatedly over a long period of time?
Iirc indoor ranges need ventilation systems because, you know, all the combustion. I don’t know if the residue on, say, counters, etc, is enough of a buildup to be significant but I would be surprised if airborne particulate was particularly high.
I saw something that yes the lead levels were high. Ventilation only does so much. It’s that old math problem: you replace half, you replace half, etc, it never gets to zero. And in this case you’re adding more.
what could explain the incredibly high numbers of Americans who seem incapable of critical thinking
Garbage education system.
100%. It’s been intentionally neutered to keep people ignorant and stupid in their decisions.
It’s ‘razing of the library of Alexandria’ bad for our near future. The only thing worse I can think of is plastic pollution.
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I’m sure this will get rained with downvotes at some point but just know you gave me a good chuckle man, and I greatly needed it. Have a great night!
I only downvoted you for saying you’ll be downvoted. Didn’t want to disappoint you.
I think they meant the other guy for dropping the “retard” line without censoring
The euphemism treadmill is ridiculous. People are always going to just use the new euphemism as an insult, causing the creation of a new euphemism. I’m drawing the line at retarded. I rarely use it but I will not stop.
Being self aware enough to think that probably means you’re not all that bad.
The damage has been done, probably 😂
iirc most spectacular form of neurotoxic damage really only shows years later if lead exposure happened during childhood which also means that little effect will be seen immediately after cleaning up lead but will show up 20 years later or so. that’s still leaded gasoline and maybe paint and water pipes to some degree
Oh that’s interesting, and I hadn’t really thought of that, so even if there is some percentage of the population suffering the cognitive impairments associated with the adverse effects of lead, it’s probably more likely that they were exposed many years or decades ago vs recently
Start shooting at 15-20 and effects show up at 35-40
Yeah it seems like maybe they’re not mutually exclusive. If you’ve been shooting regularly for a while, especially indoors, and not cleaning up right, it seems like you could get some cumulative effects over time and if you aren’t tested you might never even know
As an outsider (most people in my country don’t shoot guns for fun, but we still have our fair share of morons) I think not educating oneself/not being educated may be a more important cause.
My personal opinion is that it’s more related to the way people spend (waste) their time. All of us, I mean. The way we (do not) educate ourselves, the way we do (not) value intelligence and knowledge.
- How many people shoot guns? vs How many don’t ever read a book (a difficult one, I mean, say one essay a year)? or How many students reach university level without having read a single book? FFS, if that doesn’t ring an alarm bell…
- How many people are (not) being taught how to have heated but articulated discussions, in the literal sense of debating against someone, having a dispute with someone, while still being able to not want to kill one another?
- How many people are willing to be told (and willing to admit that) they were wrong… when they were?
That lack of education and an overall cheerful ignorance of all facts that dare not fit their viewpoint, no matter which one it is, seems to me a much more likely cause to explain why more and more people around the world (not just Americans) ‘seem cognitively impaired’. And that’s because, well, they are. Sadly.
We don’t value knowledge anymore, we value money and success. Once again, suffice to ask people: how many essays did you read in the last 12 months? Or to look at kids, how many of them want to be, say, a doctor, a scientist of some sort or, even funnier, a writer? And how many want to become ‘an influencer’ on YT (or TikTok, or whatever) or to become some star singer or sport star?
Kids have not suddenly become allergic to smartness. They’re only the mirror of what our real values as a society are (not the ones we pretend to have). Which are not being smart, not even talented as a matter of fact. They are: easy money and success.
imho, this is the main cause of dumbification going on everywhere. Obviously, I may be wrong and maybe I should stop eating lead bars as a snack?
I didn’t mean to suggest that it was the only explanation, rather that it might help explain some of the phenomenon of the lack of critical thinking that seems so prevalent in america these days, while also sort of flying under the radar as I don’t really notice people talking about it.
There has always been an anti-intellectual portion of the population but it seems to be expanding rather than contracting over time, whatever the reasons.
That Atlantic article is pretty crazy, I didn’t realize the kids these days don’t read books basically at all in school anymore.
Here’s an archive link for anybody else who wants to check it out since its paywalled
I didn’t mean to suggest that it was the only explanation,
Neither would I, just wanted to… how do you say that in English… to compare two hypothesis and say that between the two, alas, I think the lack of education (which is closely linked to the anti-intellectualism you mention) may be a more important factor.
That Atlantic article is pretty crazy,
And frightening, and sad.
Here’s an archive link for anybody else who wants to check it out since its paywalled
Thx! I did not realize it was now paywalled (I read it a few months ago).
It definitely could be and I appreciate the contribution to the discussion
You’re half right, they’re are brain damaged.
But bullets?
I don’t know man. Seems unlikely. Leaded fuel and lead paint tho…?
#Lead Exposure in Last Century Shrank IQ Scores of Half of Americans
Leaded gasoline calculation to have stolen over 800 million cumulative IQ points since 1940s
A new study calculates that exposure to car exhaust from leaded gas during childhood stole a collective 824 million IQ points from more than 170 million Americans alive today, about half the population of the United States.
https://today.duke.edu/2022/03/lead-exposure-last-century-shrunk-iq-scores-half-americans
Yeah idk. The more I read the comments and check out sources I think the question has at least some merit.
I’m taking in that cognitive impairments seem to really require cumulative exposure and the effects are delayed, but also anecdotes like this reddit post below make me think there is a nonzero number of Americans who are chronically exposed to elevated lead levels over a long period of time by frequent shooting (especially indoors) and not taking proper remedial measures.
Note that those results come from indoor range with incredibly bad air circulation (it specified that the ventilation system pushed the smoke back into your face). Outdoor shooting, and shooting a normal firing range with good (or even not actively bad) air circulation would probably yield significantly lower results.
It seems like outdoors would be somewhat better, but I’m not sure the specific premise of your comment is correct in that it seems to be much more important to use proper remediation in terms of cleanup rather than whether you shoot at a good indoor range or a bad one or even outdoors.
See, for example, this comment thread in that same post where the person states that a three day carbine course, which presumably occurred outdoors, left him testing at 13 a week later. Subsequently the person made sure to engage in proper cleaning rituals which have prevented a recurrence of the high blood lead levels
Or maybe the thing that pretty much everyone was exposed to.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mystery_meat_navigation
A link shouldn’t be a riddle when many don’t have tooltips anymore.Urgh, this philosophy is why the new wave of UX designers are making everything massive gross buttons and every modern app/game tries to look like an iPhone home screen.
If you don’t have tooltips you can still see the link before clicking it: either right click on a desktop or hold touch on mobile.
This seems like reaching for the most esoteric and niche explanation to a fairly simple phenomenon.
America’s school system sucks, and the anti-authoritarian nature of a culture formed by rejecting monarchy has been coopted to convince people that science and reason are authority figures you ought to fight back against.
The vast majority of Americans aren’t gun owners, and the vast majority of gun owners don’t shoot very often. You haven’t provided evidence for Americans being incapable of critical thinking, but you want evidence for why guns aren’t the source of american stupidity.
This is a very silly post. 😅
I’m not sure why you think it’s esoteric or niche, there are something like 400 million guns in the US, with 1/3 of Americans directly owning at least one gun and 44% of us households having a gun owner. I think that’s pretty far from “the vast majority” not being gun owners https://news.gallup.com/poll/264932/percentage-americans-own-guns.aspx
Moreover, lead exposure is known to cause cognitive impairments. I do agree however that most gun owners don’t shoot very often.
But if you need me to cite evidence that millions of Americans seem incapable of critical thinking you are either trolling or just not paying attention.
Here’s an entire book on the subject in case that helps https://www.amazon.com/Americas-Critical-Thinking-Crisis-Education/dp/1735942200
Finally, I’m not sure how you could construe my question as wanting evidence that it isn’t guns causing the problem, I pretty clearly asked a question, provided some links to explain what I had read that led me to that question, and then welcomed contrary evidence, of which you cited none by the way.
A sample size of 1000 people isnt exactly huge to be fair.
I’d like to clarify- I wasn’t intending to be hostile, though I can see how it came across that way, and I apologize, I did a kind of shitty job of conveying my idea in a way that would connect with you. I think in online spaces it can be really hard to break the habit of making your point in a way that will register with bystanders rather than the person you’re ostensibly actually talking to. I did a great job at expressing my perspective in a way that would validate the confusion I think amercians are likely to experience reading this post (as reflected by the votes), but I did a kinda crap job of actually addressing you, sorry about that. I’ll do my best to be a little effective in communicating what I meant and why I felt that way.
As an American, this feels like a cartoonishly out of touch representation of the issues my country faces (which to be fair, would be entirely understandable if you don’t live here and don’t have any first-hand experience with the US). We have plenty of them (issues, that is), and there’s lots of discussion to be had on the impact of guns on society, and also from where I’m standing it seems like are far more probable explanations for people lacking critical thinking skills than that we all just shoot our rootin’ tootin’ guns all the time over here in yeehaw land, and so we all have lead poisoning from all the bullets we’re shooting’. (Not trying to build a straw man of things you didn’t say, my point is that it feels like an caricature, and not one that aligns with the experience I have actually living here)
To reach past “crappy educational system”, “weaponized anti-authoritarianism and individualism”, and even “lead from drinking water or gasoline”, or any number of other likely causes, to instead land on a caricature of American life feels a bit silly to me. Thats an acute risk associated with an activity most people don’t participate in, and that even the people who do participate in, don’t very often.
The book you linked appears to be about how the American educational system is conceptually flawed and approaches education in a way unlikely to yield meaningful critical thinking skills- a point I think I’d likely agree with it on. But to be fair, a book also isn’t actually a quantitative reflection of poor critical thinking skills. It wouldn’t totally suprise me if America did struggle with critical thinking, there are lots of possible reasons we might- and at the same time, it’s a little frustrating for someone foreign to my country to look from the outside and say “man, I wonder if they’re all dumb cause they have lead poisoning from shooting guns all the time” while providing evidence for the link between shooting and lead exposure (makes complete sense) but no evidence for the premise that we’re dumb; that part is just taken for granted.
It kinda feels like you’re asking if the caricature of us all shooting guns all the time is the reason for the caricaturization of us all being dumb. And in doing so, overlook much more systemic far-reaching explanations for how a nation might end up in a state where critical thinking skills are lacking.
I’m not wading into looking for evidence because the nature of these things is that it takes a looooot of evidence to dispute an idea that can be thrown out with only a little. My mental health is horrible and I don’t really have the energy for that at present 😅 I think lots of other folks have made valuable contributions to the discussion, but I didn’t see anyone speaking to the fact that this feels like it’s borne out of an outsiders perspective based mostly on an imaginary idea of what it’s like to live here.
I don’t expect my expressing that idea to change your mind, but I still think it has value for providing perspective and context to the things you’re considering. If you don’t actually know much about the US first-hand, it might not be apparent that folks in the US are unlikely to see that a realistic source of the problem you’re describing given the actual experience of living here.
All I really hope to add to the conversation is that perspective. Its fine if you don’t see it the same way that I do, to be totally honest sometimes there are instances where being immersed in or “too close” to something impairs your ability to see it clearly. Though I don’t think this is one of those times.
Sorry this is all over the place, I’m pretty spent and didn’t have it in me to edit further for clarity (or try to be succinct, as you can probably tell by the like 30 paragraphs where a couple of more carefully thought out ones might have sufficed.)
Well, I’m sure the exposure from going to the shooting range is a lot smaller than this, but lead poisoning from leaded gasoline apparently had a measurable impact on IQ levels.
I 100 percent agree that the big problem of the educational system, though! It is also interesting how self-fulfilling the adversity to government has been: it has made it so easy for men with bad intentions to tear down an at least functional democracy by promising to “fix” it.
That makes complete sense to me, that’s a widespread systemic exposure; I’d kinda expect usage of leaded gasoline that to have that sort of impact
And yep, it sure is frustrating 🙃
Bro started off talking about how Americans are incapable of critical thinking and proceded to write the rest of the post.
Critical thinking isn’t taught in schools anymore. That’s the main problem.
Lead, namely in its poor infrastructure and in old recipes that have survived to the present day, was also cited for the peoples’ issues in the Roman Empire, discussed in contexts as wide as the common medical deformities and the madness of emperors like Caligula (spoiler alert, he wasn’t actually mad, just creatively spiteful, e.g. his declaring war on Poseidon was to humiliate undisciplined soldiers). So this is not lead’s first rodeo. I would give the research more time.
