I took Spanish-for-Spanish-Speakers in public school so my experience may be different.
“Spanish-Spanish” (Castillian-Spanish, Castellano) is pretty easy universally understood and accepted as a “proper” Spanish. It seemed to work well despite our mixed nationalities in the class (Cuban, Dominican, Puerto Rican, Colombian, Venezuelan, Nicaraguan, and a few more but those are first that came to mind.)
Maybe it’s because I’m from California, but we learned Mexico-Spanish. The books included Spain-Spanish (i.e. vos conjugations), but my teachers never included it in our lessons.
Vos-conjugations are not a thing in spain though? You mean tu-conjugations?
I meant vosotros, yes, thank you! Sorry, it’s been over two decades since I was in Spanish class; I mixed vos and vosotros up.
Vos is something only reserved to royalty and nobility outside of Argentina, I felt kinda offended lol.
Kinda the same here in Nevada. Our Spanish teacher explained them briefly but told us we didn’t need to learn them, didn’t test us on them, so on.
I had a teacher from Spain for three years, then for the next four years they were from various countries: Argentina, Colombia, Mexico, and the US. It was great to get used to each accent.
Because it’s the same language. I grew up in Argentina, and the “Spanish” (the name of the language is actually Castilian because there are multiple languages in Spain) we learn at school is the “Spain” one. In reality it’s the language as defined by the Real Academia Española so the language is the same (yes it includes the vosotros conjugation, no, no one outside Spain actually uses that but we learn it in school).
The differences between Mexican, Argentinian or Spanish Castilian is more in the pronunciation and the use of some words, but the language we learn at school is all the same, and I imagine it’s the same one that you learn too.
That being said, using vosotros to us sounds similar to how using thy might sound in English. A good teacher would explain that outside of Spain we use ustedes which uses the plural third person conjugation (i.e. the same one as ellos), but the correct plural second person is vosotros.
Thy is the super formal form of the conjugation, vosotros is the colloquial form of ustedes.
Tu-vosotros. Usted-ustedes. You-yall. Thou-thy.
You have it backwards, it’s the Latin countries which sound super formal and awkward to us spaniards.
Idk which variant of spanish I’m learning, but the teachers keep playing the Cinco de Mayo cartoon something about the day of the dead, so I’m assuming its the Mexico version.
The tipoffs to being Spain Spanish if they teach extra conjugations for vosotros and if they speak evening with a lisp because at some point it was decided to emulate a king with a speech impediment.
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Having learned a language where dialect often means you can barely understand each other if at all, I’m more inclined to consider Mexican vs Castilian an accent much the same way as English’s American vs Australian/british/etc…
Mandarin and Cantonese are essentially two different languages that happen to share the same characters. Someone from Honduras would be able to understand 99.9% of what a Spaniard says. If you only speak Mandarin you wouldn’t be able to understand Cantonese at all.
Can confirm, I am learning Mandarin but every time I hear Cantonese I can barely make heads or tails of it.
It’s wild when you look into how many different languages are “Chinese”. It’s like if someone were to say that someone from Germany spoke “European”.
In contrast though, I’m close to native in German, yet have a hard time with Austro-Bavarian dialects and can’t understand Schwiizerdütsch at all. The amount of times I have to say “Hochdeutsch, bitte…”
Oida
Geh weida
But why?
I’d think in all of those cases it should be the variant that has the greatest population or proximity.
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I don’t know what you mean by “choosing a dialect would be messy and complicated” since Mexican Spanish is an obvious choice. The rest of Latin America understands Mexican Spanish well because they grew up watching our shows, listening to our music and watching movies with Mexican dubs. I’ve met at least one Uruguayan, Argentinian, and a Peruvian who told me so. Don’t you think its widespread would make the choice easier?
And how do you mean it’d be more complicated and expensive? The learning materials are already made and widely used. I think it’d be a licensing issue at worst if they really wanted to switch over.
Good points.
Still at such an early level I’m not sure the distinction will be apparent or meaningful. Might be like learning German. Why pick a Hannover style of speaking over Bavarian so early?
That said I do think Mexican Spanish is more neutral in accent and cadence.
Also please enjoy this.
Formality and standardized grammar.
At some point, when you’re involving teaching a language to a class, you need a systematic way of doing so.
Typically, that means going with dictionaries and that in turn is likely to be the most formal version of a language’s pronunciation. And, with grammar, you start with the simplest but also most standardized, codified version because that’s what the books are going to use.
You don’t worry about idiom and dialect until you’ve got a fairly good grasp of the formal. Since Castilian Spanish is more or less the oldest formal Spanish, we end up learning that first.
Like, I suck at learning languages. But I tried several. One of those was Spanish. School Spanish is kinda like school English, it’s taught in strict way. Vocabulary with pronunciation, grammar rules, verb conjugation. Conversationsal Spanish just isn’t what most schools are going to start with. One could argue whether or not that’s the best place to start or not, but it is the way most languages get taught.
I dated a girl from Mexico City during that time, and she said the books were essentially the same there at least.
Forgive me but I wanted to nitpick all those examples
Cantonese is not a dialect of Madarin. It’s a distinct language, just a smaller one.
Standard Arabic is not actually spoken anywhere, and is primarily a written form. Egyptian pronunciations ARE commonly taught, not only because Egypt is big but because, with Egypt’s large entertainment sector, they have exported their pronunciations around the world in TV and movies.
British English is taught largely as a colonial legacy, not because England predates the US and Australia in history and is therefore considered “standard.”
While all of these secondary examples are flawed, IMO, I believe you’re actually right about Castilian Spanish. It’s simply more of an individual case than part of a common pattern.
Fun fact: Mexican Spanish is derived from Castilian Spanish from the central and northern regions of Spain, and was later influenced by Indigenous, African and Caribbean languages.
It doesn’t change what you said, I just think it’s a cool fact. :D
Probably racism.
It’s definitely racism
It is the same language. In fact some regions of Spain suck at speaking their own language. Spanish has a central authority that collects and organizes Spanish as it is used in the real world and it codifies it into its official rules. Furthermore, because of its grammar and syntax rules, you always know exactly how every word is pronounced just by reading it. There might be accents and regional synonyms, but there is a “standard” Spanish that everyone learns speaks.
Spaniard living in the US here to clarify how our language works. Spaniards are the best at speaking their own language by definition. We make the language, and we decide how it evolves. When you say many Spaniards suck at speaking their own language, I think you are getting confused with the many dialects that exist within the Spain. Some dialects, while being perfectly and dramatically correct, are very hard for non-native speakers to understand. Pronunciation of letters may change from dialect to dialect, but the grammar is basically the same.
The authority that sets the Spanish language grammar rules (Real Academia Española - RAE) is in Spain, and it’s rules only apply to the “standard” Spanish dialect spoken in Spain, which is also known as Castillian. However, there are multiple other dialects of Spanish within Spain (and multiple other languages that are not Spanish - Galego, Catalan, Euskera, etc). Other countries that speak other Spanish dialects choose if they want to follow or not the rules set by the RAE, and many Spanish dialects do not follow those rules. Some Spanish speaking countries have their own organizations to define their Spanish dialects. There are dialects of Spanish that are very different from the original Castillian Spanish. For example, listen to Argentinian Spanish, and compare it to Castillian Spanish. The difference is noticeable even for non-Spanish speakers. They also use a slightly different grammar.
I mean. You’re just wrong. Maybe if you’d focused more on the info and less on your nationalism you’d have noticed.
RAE doesn’t make the rules “just for Castillan”. RAE describes, rather than just ‘make up’, the rules of the Spanish as used around the world. They observe how Spanish is used and codify that. They are descriptive, not prescriptive.
Also, the whole point of dialects is that they vary in vocabulary and grammar, otherwise they are the base language itself. I don’t even know what you’re saying?
Did you even visit the RAE’s website before answering? Or did you just assume that because you’re an spaniard living in the US you have perfect knowledge? Because it checks out.
Same language but with huge differences world wide, as languages tend to do. Believe a person whom lived in Mexico for over 2 decades, Mexican Spanish is NOT the exact same. It’s mostly similar and you’ll be able to understand but it will be immediately obvious that it’s very different.
I watch Spain Spanish movies and regularly have trouble understanding it all
And then when you actually spend any time in a place where Spanish is the first language, you start to understand that, like any language, there’s the academic form (commonly taught to non-native speakers as a second or third etc. language), and then there’s the local version, complete with all the colloquialisms and slang and unique pronunciations. In Argentina, the double-L (which school taught me makes a “y” sound, “ella” being pronounced basically “ey-ya”) is commonly pronounced as more of a soft “J” sound (“ella” becomes “ey-jha”). As far as my (admittedly limited) knowledge goes, that’s really not common outside of Argentina. And then in Bolivia, especially among native descendants (Quechua and Aymara predominantly), the double-r (which school taught me is one of two conditions when you roll the R with a tongue trill) is more commonly pronounced almost like a “zh” (“herramienta” becomes “hezhamienta”). Again, not common outside of Bolivia. Spain has that classic “Barthelona” lisp, and uses the “vosotros” pronoun where most South American Spanish speakers would probably use “ustedes” (basically “y’all” vs. “esteemed plural second persons”). And that’s not even getting into which verb tenses are used most widely in different regions. There’s like 14 or 15 specific verb tenses in Spanish to English’s 7, and in school I was taught to use specific ones to communicate effectively; then I went and spent two months in Bolivia pretty much never using past perfect or predicate, instead using past imperfect for 95% of interactions, only using past perfect with other folks que hablan español como segunda lengua, or in a few very specific interactions where more detail or specificity was required than would be so in common, everyday interactions. [Edit for spelling]
An addendum to the ll, Elle. It’s not like ey-ya, that’s wrong pronounciation, it’s like a literal vibrating L.
You might be referring to the same phoneme since y sounds like the soft J you are referencing, but yeah.
Oh yeah totally! That’s a much better explanation of that specific phoneme. I went for the over-simplified version that was being taught to me in middle school, where I think the assumption was mostly “we need to teach them grammatical and structural rules and not worry about natural sounding pronunciation” which probably contributes strongly to the gringo accent where vowels aren’t pronounced consistently, but shift more like they do in English, and creates mispronunciations that are so grating and confusing (especially between certain a, i, & e sounds)
Colombians, at least Paisas, also have the double ll = j sound and use vosotros! Spanish dialects can get wild lol
Neat! I probably never would have known that if you hadn’t told me!
I’m not American so I’m speaking out of turn. But could it be resourcing?
Curriculums have to be made, and that sort of thing takes time and money. So I imagine it’s easier to take a curriculum for European Spanish that already exists and just keep using it under the assumption that it’s “close enough” for students to jump to Mexican Spanish from there, rather than reinvent the curriculum for Mexican Spanish.
the short answer is colonization. the US school system admires the Castilian language more because they have a shared history with the Spanish empire of using European languages to commit cultural genocide against the indigenous peoples of America
It makes zero sense.
The indigenous people didn’t talk in Mexican Spanish.
I didn’t say they did. Spanish versions from Latin America are still marginalized though because the indigenous peoples heavily influenced the language and the vocabulary, etc. that’s why Spaniards get judgemental when they “correct” Latine people because they view their language as inferior and grammatically incorrect
I have never seen a Spaniard correct anyone from Latin America or thinking their language is less correct.
For your knowledge Spain itself have a lot of dialects in the Peninsula, all of which sound different. And Latin American dialects are influenced by Southern Spain dialects as most colonizers were from there. In the Canary Islands and in some parts of Andalusia they also use “ustedes” as second person, for instance.
I think you just made some scenarios in your head to be angry or something.
Most “”““conflict””“” between Spain and Latin America languages I’ve seen is the never ending jokes about who has better dubbing for foreign movies or shows.
I just made up the genocide Spain committed in the Americas? lol ok buddy
The thing is that the genocide have nothing to do with the differences between Latin american and Castillian languages.
The people commiting the genocide was the people who went to Latin America and “created” Latin American Spanish dialect.
Current ascendants of Latin American people were not genocided by Spaniards. The ascendants of current Latin American people genocided the native people that used to live there.
So it makes zero sense trying to talk anything about anyone looking down to Latin American Spanish dialects because genocide of any of the things you have said. Because the people being genocided and colonized had not that language. Latin American dialect was the language spoken by the ones doing the killing, mate.
You may want to reread the question as your answer makes zero sense.
which part don’t you understand? maybe I can explain
Mainly it’s because not a single human being in Mesoamérica spoke any form of Spanish before, uh, the Spaniards turned-up. (And began committing their genocide)
The question was asking why Castilian was taught, as opposed to any other dialect/form of Spanish that is spoken in geographically proximous states to the US.
Do they? Duolingo, meanwhile, teaches a Latin American dialect (possibly Mexican), with “ustedes” as the second-person plural. (IIRC, their Portuguese is also Brazilian, which is a greater leap.)
Does it? My partner has learned some very strange words I have never heard used in mexico. But I guess the rest of Latin America also uses different dialects.
From what I recall, it does, especially for new words (items like “backpack” and “T-shirt” seem to have almost a different word in each country). Maybe Duolingo’s Spanish is from former south (Argentina or Chile perhaps?)
French taught on Canada (outside Quebec) is France French, not Quebec French. My source on this is that I was taught to say “we” for “oui” and not “wayh”. And the Quebec French sound I’m only getting from comediens on CBC so that could be way off.
France French people say wayh too. It’s the same difference between saying “yes” and “yeah”.
Ouais is more like ‘yeah’, not ‘yes’.
I once stayed in a youth hostel rural Quebec and had a really weirdly hostile reception from people there, despite dredging up my very best schoolgirl French to try and make conversation. Turns out they thought I was from Ontario. When I revealed I was a Kiwi they were all suddenly very friendly. Too late!
Mine taught Mexico Spanish, but with a brief reminder every once in a while about the vosotros conjugations.
We learned Mexican Spanish in my redneck school.
No answers from me here, but I’m curious - how much of the US learns Spanish in school?
Here in the upper mid west a lot of schools teach Spanish. Not at a you can speak level usually. Similar to how a lot of people learn biology and forget it all when they graduate.
In my state there was some reason they wanted us all to take a second language (I think it was some scholarship we would qualify for our something?) and I always thought the reason most schools had Spanish was because finding a teacher certificated to teach Spanish was more common than other languages. And both of mine were just Midwest white dudes.
My knowledge may be dated and it may vary by state, but the “I want to go to uni” track had a two-year requirement of a foreign language. When I was in school, French and Spanish were the only choices and most people wanted to study Spanish. My school system had German as well at some point, but it was cut before I got into highschool in the mid '90s. Some schools have Latin, Japanese, and others as well.
I live in a medium size town in the midwest, and all of our schools offered Spanish. My high school also had french, and the richer schools had german and japanese
We learned American Spanish when I was in school, no vosotros, no soft S, because we learned it from Cuban teachers. My kids got a mix but mostly, as you are saying, Spain Spanish. I think part of the reason is that Spain Spanish is one thing - canonical Spanish, yes? But in the Americas it’s varied, different in the US from Mexico, from Colombia, from Argentina, Costa Rica. Dialects.
I think it’s silly to say that Spain Spanish is canonical, though. Like, says who? Spanish people? Spanish in Spain is a dialect just like any other Spanish-speaking country. Imo it makes sense to teach the dialect that learners are most likely to encounter based on their geographic location, with context about the other dialects.
- Who says it, Spanish people?
Well, yes? It is the European colonizers that brought it here, I think Spain Spanish is “the Spanish” just like I think England English is “the English” and American English is an offshoot though it’s what I know.
We have several dialects in Spain that talk different. We all write proper neutral Spanish though, determined by the Royal Spanish Academy, RAE.
Same thing with Basque, in the tiny territory we occupy there’s a dialect per fucking town almost with distinct differences. Textbooks teach the official neutral Basque though. We would literally not be able to communicate if there was no neutral dialect everyone also knows…
Saying “country dialect” sounds very USA American tbh…
Dialect was probably the wrong word, because of course there’s many different dialects in many countries. (In fact, your aside about “sounds very US American” is funny, since I guarantee the US has more dialects than Spain. Plenty to hate on the US for, but that ain’t it.)
Anyway idk if there’s a word for this but like, the intermediary level between a language and a dialect. There is a wide gulf between Spanish spoken in Spain vs Latin America the same way as English in the UK vs USA. That macro-level distinction breaks down into trees of further distinction in regions, cities, towns of course.
