Discord was already succumbing to enshitification. Now with their intention to be owned by Wall Street, that trajectory will certainly accelerate at warp speed once the change of hands happens.
Anyone already get ahead of this and find a solid alternative?
Right now I’m on the fence between Element for Matrix, and Revolt. Both seem to have their pros and cons and I can’t find a clear “winner”.
I’ve been tinkering with old BBS software :)
Kibo lives!!!1
mumble is great for VOIP.
Matrix seems interesting, but i think it might be a little bit too heavy handed, im not personally a fan of web tech, though there are other things like xmpp as well.
revolt is meh, apparently their dev team is hostile to self hosting, so there’s that. There’s also spacebar, which is a reverse engineered implementation of the discord API, could be interesting.
Can you elaborate on what you mean by web tech? I don’t know much about how matrix works
a lot of modern technology and software is built on the foundation of work built by the web browser industry, it’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s not necessarily a good thing either. Provides a lot of nice features, native integration into a web browser, industry standard security and encryption procedures.
That’s about it though, Outside of that, running a dedicated version of that app is almost always some bullshit built in electron, which is a horrible buggy mess with horrible performance. Nothing stops devs from integrating these features into a standalone application… But, they likely won’t since they’ve already developed a web browser version.
I also have some problems with the way web tech is generally built, it’s built with the expectation that you will host and treat it as a web app, which is fine, it works. But i prefer not to host services i use via anything web related as generally i find it both intrusive, and problematic, in the instance that a DNS server goes down for example. (it’s not very likely, i know, but still)
I also think a lot of the networking protocols are fairly bloated, but that’s not as big of a deal, it’s just annoying.
anyway, enough of my ranting. Matrix is actually a specification for a set of communication protocols based on the foundation of web tech, it’s highly universal, and inter-compatible, which is great. But it sort of stops there. There are several server implementations, and numerous front end implementations, none of which seem to be particularly, interesting. There’s numerous electron front ends, a few that aren’t (though they won’t support most features) etc, stuff like that, it’s just. Not clean.
if discord is going public they don’t need my turbo sub anymore
Cancelled mine when they redesigned the mobile app anyway. I don’t want a different interface on mobile vs desktop. I want a unified experience, which was their original purpose.
An alternative would need screen share, just voip is not enough any more.
TeamSpeak recently added screen share to their TS6 beta, however it currently only works on official servers provided by TeamSpeak; they have not yet released TS6 server software, only the client. To my understanding, they are thankfully still planning on releasing it though.
Damn TS3 was still kinda wet behind the ears and maybe even still in beta last time I played with it. I only used it for one group and I cut ties with them.
I never even used it, I only know TS2 and it’s purplish, super basic ugly interface. (If anyone even remembers that- would’ve been back in mid to late 00s)
Most of the discords I’m on never use screen share for anything.
All the ones I’m on, around 30, it’s the only thing it’s used for.
honestly that isnthe only thing that stopd me from going all in on teamspeak/mumble
i just need a screen sharing solution (not necessarily built into those tools)
What if you had OBS create a “camera” of your screen, and then use that through video chat?
Ah, the good old “screenshare not working on wayland” workaround!
The problem is that performant screenshare (to multiple users) more or less requires infrastructure. That requires money, and it’s impossible to compete on price with services that have the VC-enshitification model.
You can get around this in a few ways, but they’re all tradeoffs that are in some way or other worse than discord.
- P2P - sacrifice latency, reliability
- direct multi-stream - sacrifice PC performance and/or bitrate
- paid infrastructure - sacrifice money
I think P2P is still the way to go. Sure it’s not perfect, but it’s simpler and by it’s very nature doesn’t require the infrastructure we know will be a problem.
Plus, don’t forget screen sharing in discord isn’t very good as is (720p30) if you’re not a paid user.
Personally I got all my friends to move to Element on Matrix. Not all of them are particularly technical, and they still have no problems on Element. I’m inclined to recommend Element / Matrix.
it’s Element/Matrix if we’re lucky. Revolt is just another Discord - surely this single company will last! With Element/Matrix being an open protocol, it won’t be a “platform” you have to leave when it goes corporate.
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Nheko provides an interface that is reminiscent of Discord. Fully featured and fast Matrix client.
Thank you for the recommendation. I tried element a while ago and found it lacking. Matrix must be the way forward. Disregarding IRC of course.
Revolt is F/OSS
https://github.com/revoltchat/
It’s not just a company with a clone of Discord, all the server back end, etc is open.
…theoretically for now
It a centralized server controlled by the devs
Host your own then
Yes, which is good, but the lack of federation is a deal-breaker. It means that you either:
- Use their servers - This requires entrusting them with your communities, just like Discord.
- Host your own private instance - You can control it, but the lack of federation means it’ll be isolated from communicating with other communities. This makes it really difficult to convince people to use your self-hosted servers.
Until Revolt adds a way for different instances to federate, Matrix is really the only other option.
I have yet to try revolt, but I thought you could just add stand-alone servers to your client (like idk, mumble). Is a revolt instance a whole separate ecosystem/infrastructure and not just a server entry?
My experience with Matrix is that the federation itself is a deal breaker. I have a pretty beefy server and good connection which was getting ddosed by running Matrix and timing out on so many requests for avatars/profiles etc. Maybe I did something wrong, but the whole experience rendered me quite skeptical to the viability of it as a federated chat.
That said I’ve had nothing but good experiences using it with big servers set up by pros.
Why would an optional feature be a deal breaker?
It also seems like an issue that could be easily solved by whitelisting.
but also with request ratelimiting
Yes, which is good, but the lack of federation is a deal-breaker.
The federation itself is a deal breaker
Why would an optional feature be a deal breaker?
Because the person they’re responding to said the lack of the optional feature was a deal breaker for them on a different piece of software.
I’m might be being dense but… Still: why would an optional feature be a dealbreaker? You just restated, you didn’t address the confusing logic.
Go ask the actual person who said it was a deal breaker for them, I can’t explain it more simply than I have.
I get why Federation can cause issues (most of the time it’s moderation related), but why would an extra option be a deal-breaker? Federation can always be disabled on a per-domain basis if you prefer. In fact, I’d argue it’s best practice to only allow domains on a case-by-case basis to prevent spam and abuse.
On the converse, you can’t enable Federation on a platform that doesn’t have it.
They were talking about matrix itself, not a specific option. And I’m not going to lie, having to hand hold your servers federation choices seems like a hassle. At that point why not just use a self hosted, non federated option?
I think the point they’re making is you can effectively have a self hosted non federated option with Matrix. Just disable federation as a whole (which I’m pretty sure is completely possible. Given companies use matrix for comms, and might not want federation, for similar reasons to what is being discussed here)
That doesn’t really change that it’s one company hosting it. Unless you’re willing to make 10 different accounts because your super-FOSS friends aren’t willing to join each others instances?
I guess the easy solution here to to make it use oauth2 authentication. Then you can just authenticate using one account elsewhere. If fediverse services also at some point become oauth2 providers, then even better.
That’s still not a solution. That entails non unified communication, access, and search. Making it easy to log in to others still doesn’t solve easy sharing between others. Also oauth2 is a pain to set up, and many people hosting their own instance aren’t going to bother.
Sorry but what exactly do you communicate and access between discord servers? Are you talking about PMs which are by default independent of servers?
Unified search could easily be achieved through third party tools at the least, like for IRC. I don’t think even discord has unified search between servers.
Oh hey, you’re totally right, that’s crazy. I use Beeper (hosted matrix setup) to aggregate my chats and I guess I’ve always been using that to search across all servers without realizing. Fully thought the DM search would also search across servers.
DMs are definitely also another case though - you can’t easily DM people on another server if that requires you to log into another server.
That’s true about DM, however DMs are not a core use-case for discord-like services. It’s the group/voice chats etc. I could see a workaround like lemmy does, where if you want to DM a user in another server, you might be able to do it through your fediverse instance (i.e. a DM simply has your fediverse instance DM their fediverse instance), but I’m sure there can be more elegant things like. However DMs by themselves are a weird thing by themselves, so much so, that even bluesky had to bolt DMs on-top and outside of their protocol.
Sadly I found out yesterday:
Matrix is not a community-based software, it was born [00] in Amdocs [01], a multinational corporation founded in Israel.
https://hackea.org/notas/matrix.html
Many were claiming its impossible to get contributions merged as well.
I would be happy to find out this information is wrong or outdated.
Feels like fud.
Matrix is a set of standards and governed by an open foundation https://matrix.org/foundation/about/
Also there are many different server implementations and its hard to believe they all send your data to some third entity. In other words, what is stated by that link is just plain false. Not to mention that today there are quite many clients as well and I find the bridge point a bit… Idiotic.
You are free to use matrix.org but makes way more sense to self host your instance, and maybe not even use Synapse but something more “modern” as server.
Why use Element for matrix?
From what I can tell it collets and links data to you: Location, identifiers and contact information.
How is that private or better than Signal?
I use Signal for private and personal messages. I use Discord solely for gaming and voicechat. A good alternative doesn’t need to be overly private (although that would be a bonus of course). It just needs to have a good UI and feature parity with Discord.
There is a difference between willing information that you put out there and data gathering that goes on without your consent.
Location data is something I don’t want anyone collecting without my consent.
Why does Element need to know where I’m located? Why is that being gathered with my identifiers?
You know the app still works if you deny it loc permissions, right?
still means they’re willing to collect data
Isn’t the data sharing optional? I’m pretty sure it asks you on first startup and you can decline.
Because people don’t use discord for privacy. They use it for gaming, voice chat, communities and streaming.
@Nikelui is 100% right: a chat room may be private, but it’s not secure. Even in an encrypted room, every additional person you add reduces your security. I’m sure there’s some paper out there that studies this, and that the graph of # of members vs security is an inverse power ratio.
If it’s a public chat, there is no security.
However, with Matrix, if you run your own server and restrict access to your friends, at least you can be fairly certain your chat room isn’t being used to train an LLM, or to harvest information about you for advertising.
There is a difference between willing information that you put out there and data gathering that goes on without your consent.
Public chats are not my concern. That’s information I’m putting out there willingly.
Location data is something I don’t want anyone collecting without my consent.
Why does Element need to know where I’m located? Why is that being gathered with my identifiers?
I don’t know. I don’t use Element; I wasn’t aware it requested location service access. I switched to FluffyChat ages ago; it only asks for notification.
But that’s just for group chat. I’ve been using Jami lately, and it does ask for location access; that’s because it has a “share location” feature, that - if you use it - shows a little map with your location to the person you’re sharing with. Maybe Element has implemented something similar?
This is what shows up when I check Element. Every other Federated app that I use doesn’t collect any information. Voyager, Pixelfed, Peertube, Mastodon all come up with “No data collected”
Huh. I just checked Fluffy, and it asks for location, camera, and phone. I just denied it everything but notifications, so VOIP won’t work, but all I use it for is chat rooms anyway.
In any case, it doesn’t look any better than Element, in that respect.
Are you specifically referring to the mobile client of Element? i wasn’t away of anything with the desktop client that has anything to do with location.
This is what shows up when I check Element. Every other Federated app that I use doesn’t collect any information. Voyager, Pixelfed, Peertube, Mastodon all come up with “No data collected”
I just looked in detail through their privacy policy, and it looks like if you use their “service” they are collecting quite a bit of data, certainly more than I would have expected. I only use stand alone, non-federated homeservers and I have everything disabled as far as telemetry, etc, but I think you’ve convinced me to keep an eye on the other clients. I last test drove several last year and all of them were either lacking features I needed or had issues.
The Element web client will break encryption when you clear your browser data.
Does it? I think it logs you out and after logging in again, you need to provide your encryption key/verify with other device again in order to access the history. Or wdym with breaking?
Does it? On Android, it never asked me to grant location permission unless I try to share my location to another user. Similar with contacts and calendar, it’s working perfectly fine without them. Where exactly does it link those identifiers and with what?
This is what shows up when I check Element. Every other Federated app that I use doesn’t collect any information. Voyager, Pixelfed, Peertube, Mastodon all come up with “No data collected”
Ah! I don’t know what exactly these mean, would be interesting to see what Element says what those mean. I don’t think Element actually adds these to your messages etc but I don’t know the protocol enough.
Signal is centralized and require a phone number to register, it’s not private at all.
That’s bullshit.
A) Privacy =/= anonymity
B) They have usernames and the option to hide your number from searches for those interested.
C) Signal has absolutely no way of accessing any of your information: https://signal.org/bigbrother/ They publish all their subpoenas and there is no information that are able to collect. It’s all encrypted.
D) Phone numbers are an easy way onboard the normies and Meta addicts that don’t value privacy.
Your phone number is tied to your identity, there are no reasons to ask it to begin with.
Not entirely related, but why do so many people use Discord? What’s the appeal? I only ever used it as a replacement vor teamspeak or ventrilo. And I honestly hate most online games.
I’ve been using it for several years. I have a small server I use with my IRL friends and it works great.
- Near 100% availabily
- Nice sound quality
- Supports multiple servers for your multiple interests
- UI is amazing
- Works fine on every platform
- Screen sharing / streaming is easy
- Cool to see what your friends are playing
- Free plan is more than enough, you can pay for cosmetics or higher stream quality.
+1. It’s like an IRC channel but improved and easy to use.
When I started in the online games, we used IRC + TeamSpeak. Now we only use Discord since it has all of them in only one app but it’s better (except the ads), easier and you also has a Mobile App.
The UI is actually kinda ass, but we all got used to it.
Me and my friends moved to matrix, but we still use discord for streaming.
Compared to the software we were using before such as Skype, TeamSpeak, Ventrilo and Mumble… The UI is amazing.
I’d happily move to Matrix but I’d lose all the servers for my hobby interests. No point in having both.
If you just need voice comms and basic chat mumble/murmur has worked great for me for ages.
What are your thoughts on xmpp? Recently I have come to like a lot and am pretty active with friends there.
There are people using xmpp? Last time I set up a server and tried using it with Pidgin, I couldn’t find a soul that used it
They’re out there. The Venn diagram of people still choosing IRC (as opposed to being forced to use it b/c that’s where the community is) is probably just a circle.
I was a big XMPP user back in the day, but because of the lack of multi-device message syncing and the really shoddy state of encryption, I wandered away. Plus, using XML for the protocol really geeked me out. XML is a document format, and per the spec, to be well-formed it needs to have an open and matching close tag. Jabber hacked around this by making a sort of infinite document - you get the open tag, but never the close tag - and it just felt really icky.
I understand a lot of these things have since been addressed. I don’t know if XMPP still uses that bastardized version of quasi-XML without a close tag. But other things have come along that I like more. About 6 months ago I started running a client on my desktop again, but like you, nobody I knew was still using it, and nobody new was advertising it as their connection info, so… yeah. After a few months, I stopped running the client.
@sxan @shortrounddev jmp.chat uses XMPP, and it’s a very viable replacement for Google Voice (and generic SIP options like voip.ms), so that’s what got me back on the XMPP train. No one else other than my family is using it with me, though, but it’s still nice to have SMS, (encrypted & decentralized) family chat, and IRC (via biboumi bridge) in one desktop client.
That’s interesting; the integration with SMS is a nice feature. Thanks!
You do eventually get the close tag, when you log out. Lol
Irc isn’t the competitor of xmpp. Discord is
I didn’t mean to suggest that it was. I meant that the kind of people who voluntarily choose IRC are the same sorts of people who would voluntarily choose to is XMPP. While IRC is older than XMPP, it’s still the 1:1 chat protocol for old technical people.
Do older technical people use 1:1 chat? I would think email is more common
Who do you think invented XMPP?
Yes, email, but it’s not real-time chat. Jabber sat between community chat IRC and the digital snail-mail analog, email.
Xmpp is mostly used for private groups and 1:1 chat, so more of a WhatsApp than a Discord replacement.
But you can find some public channels here: https://search.jabber.network/
The issues you mentioned have been fixed, and XML was never an issue 😅
xmpp is still valid but the new kid on the block is activitypub. I don’t think I’ve ever hosted an xmpp server but to me it’s a better suited (mature, focused)protocol with plenty to offer that AP can’t yet.
having said that, stillll no moderation on free networks.
XMPP feels dated and has to much protocol sprawl.
Matrix is nice, and you can have jitsi for calls integrated. It seems to be pretty popular; Lemmy has a field for matrix @ in user profiles. Never heard of revolt before.
I use Jitsi for a non-profit, and I like the mute someone else function, but oh wow the noise cancellation needs improvement. So many voice comm apps have disappeared (there used to be one our group used all the time, then the devs dropped it (the client app) and just became on API or something).
Time to dust off my old Mumble server!
I was reading this thread and started looking for that app again.
Mumla? Is it even still being updated?
Mumla the ever living!
Ever looked up XMPP ?
And Snikket for super-easy setup and management
Matrix.
Matrix is spectacularly cursed to the point of being unusable if you self-host it. The protocol is dumb enough to lock you out of rooms hosted on another server forever if anything goes wrong with the key rotation.
