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Iran is not nearly as bad as Israel. A world where Iran loses and Israel loses would be a dramatic loss for the people of Iran, while if Israel loses and Iran maintains its sovereignty the people of Iran can chart their own destiny, rather than being dominated by the US and terrorized by Israel. All of this not even mentioning the cessation of the genocide of Palestine.
Yeah, when I said that I didn’t really adequately consider what would actually come of Iran being crippled. Civilian rule is not the likely outcome of Iran being defeated.
And Iran isn’t as bad as Israel, I agree, but that’s a pretty low bar.
A low bar it may be, but as you said in the beginning, a toppled Iran would end up like a toppled Iraq - utterly devastated and all of the flaws that existed pre-Iraq War seem like beauty marks after the genocidal US invasion.
People need to chart their own destiny, free from terrorization backed by the US Empire. Without that pressure, social movements in Iran have more room to breathe without fearing rocket-fire from Israel.
The people of Iran would be wise to take this opportunity to actually plot their destiny.
What would that look like? Trying to help Israel destroy Iran, allowing the US and Israel to sweep in and commit genocide against them like the US did with Iraq? The Iranian state is what currently stands between the people and utter devastation, even if that state is flawed, without it the people of Iran have no destiny to speak of. If revolution comes to Iran, it should be on Iranian terms, not on westerners whose regimes benefit from Israeli aggression against Iran.
It would look like no more Iranians being executed for not wearing a hijab, or being gay, or saying mean things about the ayatollah.
But I guess their regime is absolutely necessary to stop the very long list of people that want to genocide Persian culture.
Typical .ml authoritarian apologist.
We saw how it ended up in iraq. How many time you guy get fooled by the west propaganda?
Iranians are smart enough to know the threat number one is israel then the rrgime
Iran is a flawed state, certainly, but if Israel succeeds then they will succeed in killing far more women and queer people than the Iranian state could ever hope to execute, along with cisgender folk, liberals, etc. This is pinkwashing. As a queer person myself, this type of rhetoric is just Imperialist apologia, the path to queer liberation of Iranians would be dramatically pushed backwards if Israel succeeds in destroying Iran.
Further, yes, Iran is necessary to stop the genocide in Palestine at this moment. When Western countries are all condemning Iran and backing Israel, it is the Global South that backs Iran. Gazans are cheering, Yemeni people are watching the bombings of Tel Aviv on the big screen. Israel has been the single greatest obstacle in queer liberation in the Middle East as the fomenter of chaos, genocide, and destabilization.
Why is it that queer liberation happens in some countries, and not others? When does it happen? Social progress is a product of economic development and liberation of the Working Class. Bombing Iran and creating a failed state would result in thousands of deaths of queer Iranians, children, and many more.
Do some self-crit. You’re caping for Israel and advocating for the country doing the most to oppose genocide to collapse.
They are and they want the religious establishment to revoke the fatwa against nuclear weapons https://www.youtube.com/shorts/QT8-500J7lo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hOS1s7982Mc live, some rockets coming in
Small bombardement video. Allegedly on Israeli ministry of defence: https://xcancel.com/Haqiqatjou/status/1933592695680680198
Just a spontaneous exothermic reaction, that’s all.
there were hamas tunnels underneath ministry hq
So this is what a bitter fate looks like
that top image hits hard
literally hit hard
About time they got a taste of their own medicine.
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Let’s see military objects used against Gaza and Iran getting destroyed. Do not raze countries to the ground.
Good thing they are…
Yay for that! Hope as many generals as possible got into the fire
Went to the toilet and missed this one please do another
I was watching on my phone, so I didn’t miss shit.
No it’s OK, I missed it too, they can do it again so we can see. It’s allowed
wow so sad, it’s almost like they started multiple wars or something
What they can’t do some wars and genocide now???
I feel terrible for every citizen killed or made homeless/jobless because of this.
Shouldn’t be a citizen on stolen land.
Every land is stolen. The problem is that they’re in the middle of committing genocide.
Not ‘every’ land but I get the point.
Still it doesn’t compare and there’s no excuse.
In this case the colonising is still going on, hence the genocide.
They are not ‘citizens’ but colonisers.
They deserve all they get, what they don’t deserve is sympathy.I would disagree. If you go back far enough, every land has been stolen. There is probably no piece of land that hasn’t been held by multiple different groups over time.
I’d also argue a government existing at all is stolen land. What gives them the right to the land, instead of the people using it as they want? At some point someone decided the land was theirs, and not someone else’s, and decided they could sell, lend, or use the land as they want, even if someone else also wanted to use it.
Someone made the same point so answered this already to show it is an invalid argument in the case of Palestine.
Link?
Before colonialism, empires would conquer lands and then just make the people who already live there into their subjects.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren’t really organized enough to steal land (and weren’t embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They’d just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
And before empires and agriculture and such, people weren’t really organized enough to steal land (and weren’t embedded deeply enough in the land for it to be stolen). They’d just move to the new land and become part of the people already there.
Yeah, that’s my point. At one point in time land wasn’t something owned, just something utilized. The fact that governments exert control over them implies they were stolen, as it prevents some people from utilizing it. See: Proudhon - What is Property?
USAmericans sweating rn 😬
Don’t think they care much. Or about anything except themselves for that matter.
The most navel staring country on the planetThe reason the US supports Israel is exactly because Israel is a settler-colony. They’re part of the same genocidal settler project, Zionism is Manifest Destiny.
If landback wins in Israel the ones paying attention know that it’s coming for them too.
It’s also a geographically beneficial located proxy.
This belief that Israel is a US controlled proxy has always vexed me.
So-- honest question here-- From inside the US it appears that our entire political apparatus is controlled by a relatively small sprinkling of zionists doing whatever is good for Israel and is inevitably bad for the US-- going all the way back to the Nakba. But theres always people (like yourself) on Lemmy and Reddit claiming Israel is a US creature under US control for US gain.As an American my free speech ends and I get prosecuted if I say anything anti semitic. I CAN say racist things about anyone else, all I want as long as I dont start a riot.
Can you tell me why you are so certain zionism is controlled by the US (your understanding), not the US by rich zionists (my understanding)?
edit: Did you just …downvote and run away from the question? It was an honest question.
But they didn’t have to make a colony of European settlers to do that, did they? Egypt is a loyal collaborator with the US and it fulfills the same geostrategic goals, but the amount of support Egypt gets pales in comparison to Israel. Why is that?
We can’t dismiss the ideological importance of Israel. The unlimited support of the 51st state is exactly because it is a settler-colony.
Manifest destiny said the US land is all ours. Also Hawaii. Divine right mandated by God, so…
/s
Us next!
Fun fact: every citizen of the entity is considered a reservist so there ARE no civilians! If you’re a settler you’re a valid target no matter what!
I don’t want to talk ethics, but as a rule of thumb, winning a war is easier if you take out strategic targets than if you target civilians. Targeting civilians is what you do if your weapons aren’t precise enough to target tanks/planes etc.
As long as they are not on active duty, they shouldn’t be targets. And if they are forced to serve, they should still only be killed if they are an active threat. Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Hope you’re acting ironic and do not actually call to genocide all Jews in Israel.
Hope you’re acting ironic by saying that you can commit a genocide, put your gun over the fireplace you murdered a family to steal, and suddenly not be a valid target.
It doesn’t matter if you put your gun down as a settler colonizer. You’re still actively engaging in the genocide. You are still a valid target.
And the objective of any just war is to expel you.
Normally, they should first be offered to surrender.
Get on a plane and go home. No one’s stopping you. That’s your opportunity.
How are you engaging in genocide if you do not take part in the war? And especially if you denounce the actions of your government? Is being born in Israel enough to be seen as a genocidal maniac?
I swear this “settler” discourse is gonna drive me crazy at some point.
How can you call me a robber just because I accepted all of these stolen goods that were stolen specifically for me to have?
Shut the fuck up holy god
Good. Go crazy. Shut the fuck up.
Is being born in Israel enough to be seen as a genocidal maniac?
If you join the IDF yes it fucking is. And why are you acting like this is something that happened at the dawn of history? These are not people who were born there. These are people who settled there because they were told they could murder people and steal their homes. Stop making ahistoric excuses for fucking fascists, you fucking fascist piece of shit.
In no way to be a snob, but could we tone it down? After all, we’re mostly on the same page on that the state of Israel is committing war crimes, we only differ in who we blame for it.
Back to the substance:
First, Israel as an independent state exists since 1948, so yes, the absolute majority of people living in modern day Israel were born there; they are not the same people who came to displace Palestinians all those decades ago.
Second, I did not talk about IDF soldiers. Those who voluntarily joined Israeli armed forces do take part in an act of evil, and deserve to be judged. I do not support the same notion in respect to Israeli civilians and those on mandatory service.
Third, in your robber hypothetical, where are the Israeli civilians? Do they have to renounce their citizenship and go live abroad not to receive “stolen goods”? Someone who is opposed to the war taking place are not “robbers” here.
No, but all Israelis that are zionists maybe.
Zionists are not Jewish people, they are actually against Judaism.
I believe it’s the Talmud that says Israel cannot exist until the messiah returns. This is why you have many religious Jews in the US against the state of Israel.
Zionists are the one and only antisemites.
Zionists are mostly Jews, but Jews are mostly not Zionists.
But yes, according to Talmud, Israel shouldn’t exist.
There are more Christian Zionists than there are Jews in total.
“Zionists are mostly Jews” is an objectively false statement.
Maybe specifically in Israel the statement could be seen as true, but that’s only because Israel is a jewish settler ethnostate, so most of almost any grouping would be a majority Jews.
Zionist are not jews. They might say they are but the are against Judaism just like southern Christians are not Christians.
Idk man. If you’re a child, a unhoused, or a otherwise a person without the economic means to leave because your ancestors were settlers and you just so happened to be born in the colonized land, I’d consider you a civilian. I think your view is too black and white.
Screw you if you’re a deliberate Zionist benefiting from genocide though.
Israelis aren’t walled in and prevented from leaving like Palestinians are in Gaza.
Israelis have no practical excuse to continue their occupation, especially when everyone is forced to serve in the IDF to actively aid the occupation rather than just passively.
Just a reminder: 82% of all the Israeli Jews support ethnic cleansing in Gaza.
Just saying.
It feels like there’s reason to inflate those numbers both for Israel and Palestine. Do we know they’re credible? Genuinely asking, I’m not sure from my cursory searx.
Hopefully they take the opportunity for a fresh start and move out of the settler occupation of Palestine.
If they voted for Netanyahu they asked for it, and I have no sympathy.
The rest would do the same.
As they always have proven their entire miserable history.
Singling out Netanyahoo is Bernie the sheepdog’s tactics of dammage controlBlaming the government in power and those who put them in power for the actions taken by the government is totally reasonable.
You’re suggesting well “what about a hypothetical government that doesn’t exist huh?”. That doesn’t matter. They don’t exist. Blame the government
Israel didn’t become an apartheid genocidal occupation of Palestinian land under Netanyahu. It’s has been since its founding.
You’re suggesting we close our eyes and pretend their entire history doesn’t matter, that we just blame the current figurehead and his (variable but typically increasingly few) direct supporters.
Every government before him was the same, they’re not ‘hypothetical’. Ridiculous argument.
What doesn’t exist is a reality where the next government isn’t brutally mistreating Palestine.
Your hasbara is weakFirst let’s settle one thing, Israel has no right to exist. I’m against assuming 100% of the populace is all for the genocide. The majority government and their supporters clearly are.
The apartheid state of Israel needs to end. The genocide needs to be stopped by any means, except a genocide in return.
The entire majority government and their supporters can hang.
I’m not going to condem the rest for a “thought” crime they didn’t commit. Maybe they would have done the same thing, maybe not.
I hope you are being naive.
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2015/11/9/poll-53-israelis-support-extrajudicial-killings.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/poll-half-of-jewish-israelis-say-israel-should-run-gaza-after-the-war-0-say-hamas/Plenty of jews outside the apartheid state are against it.
Those that live there, wether bcs of propaganda or a superiority complex don’t.
Maybe 5 to 10% maximum have normal views.
You know what they say about people trying the same thing and expecting different results.
Well I’m glad all of your elected officials represent your views and morals.
I mean if a candidate is the “Hello, I am literally hitler” candidate and you vote for them, maybe you’re fucked in the head?
Except, as is here in the US, we didn’t all vote for that, now did we?
The majority of Israelis supports the genocide of the Palestinians according to surveys and more than half of jewish Israelis support attacking Iran even without US support.
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The majority of the world is critical of ALL Americans now for Trump, he was elected twice, thant’s on them all. Israelis have expressed majority support for this ongoing genocide and attacks on Iran, this is on them all. Bomb a soverign nation “pre emptively” get bombed back.
Fuck the entire Israeli government and anyone who supports it.
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What kind of citizen? Palestinian? Iranian?
All
What the other commenter said. All citizens.
every citizen in Palestine and Iran too right?
RIGHT?
Of course! All citizens.
I don’t. I only feel terrible for the ones who were opposed to these attacks on other countries. Most of them (if the statistics I’ve seen are to be believed) support the actions, so they deserve the consequences. Maybe these people dying horrifically will finally make others consider the value of lives.
May God help the righteous against the murderous, colonizing tyrants.
Good thing God isn’t real.
As the Iranians are shouting currently:
“Allahu Akbar!”
I think that is an Arabic phrase. They speek Persian/Farsi
It’s a widespread Islamic phrase but yes it stems from Arabic it means “God is greatest” and is often chanted in celebrations in Iran (and anywhere else with high Islamic influence)
Many Muslims will use Arabic for certain religious/symbolic purposes regardless of native language as the Quran was revealed in Arabic so it holds special purpose and unites the global Islamic community as they all can understand such phrases no matter where they live/which language they speak.
As I posted the above comment there were reports of Iranians shouting it to each other from the rooftops and thousands taking to the streets in groups to chant it despite the threat of Israeli attacks to celebrate Irans successful retaliation.
Zionists certainly don’t believe they’ll ever meet Him and be judged for their actions, that’s for sure!
Are you retarded? God’s a fucking bedtime story for children. You’re gonna die. You won’t exist anymore. Get ready. But it also doesn’t really matter because you won’t care (because you will be dead) 👍
Whatever helps you sleep at night (as long as you keep it moral).
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No one is arguing a concept.
Go Iran!
JFC. Bloomcole is at it yet again.
Accurate username on you
Make your point. No one is here to watch your pathetic adhominem attacks. Stop wasting all of our time.
They are both horrible, repressive regimes. This is a zero sum conflict.
Most of the allies in world war 2 were horrible, repressive regimes. I would still support them.
That’s hardly a reasonable comparison though is it? The allies during WW2 were mostly functioning democracies. This conflict is a theocratic dictatorship which treats women as second class citizens and executes homosexuals vs a fascist regime which is currently engaged in a genocide. Both sides are fucking evil and to celebrate one over the other is ignorant.
That’s hardly a reasonable comparison though is it?
It’s entirely reasonable, you just have a white supremacist double standard.
The allies during WW2 were mostly functioning democracies.
The vast majority of the British Empire couldn’t vote and were considered lesser beings. The US had racial inequality inshrined into law and a habit of murdering minorities. The USSR I leave as an exercise to the reader.
This conflict is a theocratic dictatorship
I assume you mean Israel.
which treats women as second class citizens
Lol, the WW2 allies absolutely treated women as second class citizens, and criminalised homosexuality. Its also ghoulish the way westerners go "these countries treat minorities badly, so it’s ok to kill them (including the minorities). Ukraine isn’t perfect about minorities either, do you use that to say they deserve to get invaded? Oh wait, Ukraine in white.
Both sides are fucking evil and to celebrate one over the other is ignorant.
The British Empire was more evil than Iran by multiple orders of magnitude, yet for some reason (white supremacy) you don’t take this stance on WW2
Churchill voted greatest Briton of all times in 2016.
A white supremacist who used the slogan ‘keep Britain white’.
Called Jews ‘hebrew bloodsuckers’ and has murdered millionsAnd it’s the same people who voted him that who are now condemning Iran and defending Israel. Whatever ideology they claim to possess, the one they actually practice is white supremacy.
USSR?
Good one! :D
I wasn’t joking.
The USSR was a functioning democracy, moreso than its peer countries. Rather than being entirely decided by Capital, the Soviets extended democratic input to the economic sector. Soviet Democracy by Pat Sloan and This Soviet World by Anna Louise Strong are both good first-hand accounts.
It certainly wasn’t perfect, either, but it was a dramatic improvement on Capitalism. Zhenli has a good article on contextualizing some of the failures of democracy in early Socialism, as well as pointing out how western leftists often let the perfect Socialism in their heads be the enemy of the flawed but really existing Socialism in the real world, that faces real struggles thanks to being a really existing system.
Iran ranks 3rd in the world in numbers of engineers. 70% of them are women.
‘The second class citizens’ is exagerated, and often simply lies for propaganda purposes, like the Mahsa Amini case.
The last execution of homosexuals was 20 years ago, and this was for rape, not bcs homosexuality.Yes many islamic countries have issues, and these are the typical hasbara machine’s ammo:
“Let us genocide the Palestinians bcs they hate the gays!”Also your WW2 ‘democracies’ were - and still are in many cases - colonisers and looters of a large part of the world.
Do you have a particular source on modern LGBT realities in Iran you could recommend?
No sorry, LGBT is not particularly my interest.
Maybe go on Lemmygrad and ask them directly.
A few hours ago there were some discussing the attacks.
Eat dick
Thanks
Drink bleach
Thanks
Iran is not the agressor, never was.
And the other side is caricaturally evilWatch out, the enlightened centrist has arrived!
Winston Churchill, Adolf Hitler, well, they are both bad people. Let’s root for neither of them.
I get what you’re saying but you couldn’t have chosen a worse example… Like yeah absolutely fuck Churchill lol, he’s a huge part of the reason why we’re in this mess with Israel now
It’s still a good example because as bad as Churchill was he was better than Hitler.
Was he, though? How many millions did he murder in the manmade Bengal famine?
I’m not denying Churchills crimes or painting him as good.
How many would Hitler have murdered if he had similar control over the region? Just look at General plan Ost…
There’s a reason the USSR tried to ally with Churchill against Hitler before hostilities even started.
Sure, you have a point, just wanted to remind people that western European countries enacted many genocides to similar scale than Nazi Germany (or greater)
Still I would have rooted for Churchill when it comes to the conflict of Nazi Germany versus Britain because I am able to separate actions from blindly supporting everything.
Iran too did absolutely horrible things in the past They sent a lot of children to die during their war with Iraq. The Mahsa Amani stuff everyone keeps bringing up is so lightweight but Western propagaganda is the dumbest stuff.
However, currently Iran is aiding Palestine and fighting Israel and they are not sending children to die for it. So I support that action.
Churchill ain’t done shit to defeat Hitler, try with Stalin
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all violence against fascists is justified
all violence against genocidaires is morally good
What goes around comes around
LGBT! 🌈🌟 🎉
what?
