I posted this question on Reddit a while ago and it was an interesting discussion so I wanted to hear what Lemmings think.
It’s common for religious people to be against the above mentioned things due to their beliefs, but how common is it for atheists to be against them? What reasons would they have? How would they base their opinion if there was no belief system/religion to rely on?
I’m not trying to provoke or insult anybody with this question, and I don’t wish for people to hate on each other’s beliefs. I just think this is an interesting concept to think about.
I don’t know how common, but I remember enough of middle school to know that just because you’re a budding atheist does not prelude deep homophobia.
Or racism.
The American scientific community was all in on eugenics prior to WWII. We were sterilizing people left and right for mental illness, being a minority with “too many kids,” etc.
STIM doesn’t include ethics, psychology, and sociology. It’s amazing how many book-smart people are terrible humans.
The thing is, teenagers (usually) are a reflection of what they are taught in their houses. They are not mature enough to have their own opinions.
Better question is, how common is for adult atheists to be against homosexuality/abortion?
“Teenage pseudo-intellectual edgelords” is a demographic targeteted for recruitment by the far-right and its a scene that was filled with them decades ago.
So now they’re not racists and sexists, they’re “race realists” and armchair biologists. All it took was a crooked scan of a figure in a published paper.
But there’s no critical thought behind it at all. Give them a list of IQ grouped by race and they’ll declare there are no contributing systemic problems or historical events, black people are just genetically inferior.
There are so many obvious threads they could follow.
Scientific ones like “Is IQ actually objective or can you easily be primed and trained for the test?”.
Moral ones like “Should people’s rights and freedoms be decided by their intelligence and if so, why is that being extrapolated from the color of their skin rather than giving IQ tests to white supremacists?”.
Innate ones that don’t require any further context like “If white people aren’t at the top of that list anyway, why is the ‘okay to abuse’ cut off at second place?”
Ultimately, they’re no different from the religious extremists. They’re bigots and they’ve worked backwards from that to find an excuse.
Not every atheist is a humanist or even pro science, so they definitely exist. For example some regions in East Germany have a high Atheist rate and a very right wing population.
That was me, I was raised Mormon so I had a lot of common sense that turned out to be unquestioned prejudice. Not a defence of who I was though, I was a prick.
I can only speak for myself, I am a centrist gen Xer and I don’t give a damn about homosexuality or abortion . I personally think they should be background noise and unimportant issues when other issues are being considered. I neither support nor oppose these issues , because I have limited emotional energy and I would rather worry about important issues.
I am very similar and I agree with this, specially with the limited emotional energy. It is physically/mentally not possible to handle all the bad shit in the world; I only focus on those around me. For example, I only have one homosexual friend, but I never speak about sexual topics anyway so that never comes up. I will never take part in a gay pride parade, but I will also never stop it or oppose it. This goes on for many topics as well.
So yeah, fairly neutral on such topics, and prefer to stay neutral. Even for topics I don’t agree on, I still try not to pick a side. “But you should be pro-X and pro-Y because of Z!”, no, take my neutrality as a sign that I am not against your existance.
I sort of agree. I think we should a) have gay marriage be legalized and totally equal and b) decide as a society what date is OK. Whether that’s 3 months or 5 months I don’t really care. Then make it a law and move on
But remember, just because it doesn’t matter to me or you (I’m not gay or a woman and I’m guessing neither are you) doesn’t mean it isn’t important to a lot of folks. Abortion is something that can dramatically improve a young girl’s life for the better. Instead of raising a kid at 19 maybe she can go to college and begin a career. Not only is her life improved, we have a productive member of society.
Of course, we lose out on population growth but I’m more of an individualist than collectivist. I think we can always just import immigrants to solve population issues.
So I support whatever the average woman wants do with abortion.
But yeah I agree that we focus too much on these culture war issues and not enough on economic issues. For example economic inequality or distribution of wealth.
The question as posed paints with very broad strokes. I’m guessing by “religious people” you’re probably thinking of American christians of the larger denominations.
Why do you think that religiosity is necessary to oppose queer people? In my experience, opposition to the queer community and expressions of queerness is tied to views on gender and conservative/regressive views overall. While there is certainly overlap between orthodox/regressive religiosity and said roles, you can still see a lot of bigotry from people who don’t care about what any god says, they just think “that limp-wristed fairy isn’t a REAL man”.
As with anything outside the mainstream, the experience of being an atheist (and being “out” as an atheist) can lead people to question more things that are considered normal and empathize with others, but it isn’t a given.
Sometimes deviance enforces a sense of humble and earnest examination of common truths and connection with others and their own struggles, and sometimes it enforces the view that this person knows better than the crowd so no need to really question what is definitely their own views.
Supposedly china, a country that’s largely atheist, also has issues with homosexuality. Weird how persistent that trait is.
lifelong atheist here and I was always taught to live and let live so do whatever the fuck you want it’s your life
I would note that it’s not any part of the ethos so an atheist can be (or not) anything. A lack of faith in a deity and an absence of prescribed beliefs is precisely that after all.
So vegan and meat loving atheists can exist precisely as much as progressive and extremely conservative ones.
Is it likely or common? I’d venture so say I doubt it.
I’ve met people like that, I think those against abortion are more common and their reasoning is that the child is alive from conception or the moment its heart starts beating, and it deserves human rights from that moment. This idea is independent from any belief in god.
Same goes for homosexuality, personally I think it’s because some men (I’ve never met a non religious homophobic woman) find their own sense of masculinity or sexual identity challenged. I’ve never met a young person like this, all the examples I can think are from people who should be at least 50 yrs old today.
And honestly? I think it’s more of a cultural thing. I think I’ve met these types of people just as much as I’ve met backwardly religious types. In some countries you have a lot of religious thinking but not in others.
I’ve not known any. But it also seems like those things have a correlative and not causative relationship.
Not sure about the US, but a lot of former soviet countries are virulently homophobic, despite high levels of atheism.
China and Japan are also quite homophobic too, despite something like 80% of the population being atheist.
Closer to home, the UK has far more atheists (google suggests almost twice as many) than the US, but is also TERF central with plenty of homophobia and transphobia.
My elderly father would probably catch on fire if he steps into a church. But he shares basically all social values with hardcore Christians.
You can be a non believer, that was raised in a certain belief system and as such share their shitty values. I would imagine this is much more common with older atheists/agnostics/don’t-care-about-religion,-only-myselfionists
I wonder what is the excuse of non religious people that are against homosexuality.
At least religious people have the excuse that a mighty superman god person said that homosexuality was wrong.
Do non religious people just hate homosexuality for the sake of hating it?
There’s a fairly easy argument to be made that since gay people can’t reproduce, it’s not natural.
This is not my pov, but it’s an easy argument.
What about infertile heterosexual men and women? Are they also unnatural?
(Asking in general, not you OP)
Not their choice, but “Homosexuality is a choice”.
To use a really dumb argument I’ve heard before.
I’m fairly certain he’s against it due to his upbringing and never bothering to question his “beliefs” on the topic.
“Homosexuality is weird and wrong” (and it makes me doubt my own sexuality and masculinity) is probably the only driver behind it.
Yeah I think a good example is Jordan Peterson - AFAIK he’s an athiest. And he’s a hard-core conservative. What i found interesting is I remember his debate with Zizek and he was visibly shaken / nearly brought to tears when Zizek did his bit about Christianity being the most atheistic religion.
Where Christ says on the cross “Eli Eli Lama Sabachthani?” -> “father why have you forsaken me”
God himself in human form came down to Earth and in his moment of torment lost faith. Zizek argues this is quite a radical thing and this is why Christianity is the most atheist religion. I think it is a bit profound although you never know with Zizek. He says a lot of cool sounding stuff but sometimes mainly to shock.
What do you. Mean by “being against homosexuality?” This can mean:
Finding it distasteful.
Thinking it isn’t real or healthy.
Speaking out against it, trying to shame or stigmatize it.
Promoting its criminalization.
I don’t really care if people want to do 1 and 2 as long as they keep it in their heads.
I’ve met weird people who argue that homosexuality is unnatural because it doesn’t reproduce (and apparently that is the reason for existence) and thus wrong.
Same people ignore homosexuality in nature, that other animals in nature have members that contribute to their society without mating, and that no one cares what they think.
But I have met them.
It’s not really that surprising. I’m straight, and thinking about sex with someone of my own gender, does repulse me. But it’s not really a different revulsion to thinking about sex with someone of the opposite gender, who I’m not into.
I can totally imagine less self aware individuals observing their own feelings, and failing to account for the fact that the feelings of others may differ, and that that is fine, and doesn’t need to affect them. Even if they are otherwise secular.
I’ve definitely met homophobic people, who literally go out of their way to feel queasy about it, when seeing it in public or the media. Mistaking their feelings for something more universal, than just their own personal sexual orientation.
I suspect it’s far less common, but I don’t have any numbers.
It depends in large part how you define “atheist”- does this include people with religious or spiritual beliefs, but don’t believe in a diety?
Or does it exclude the supernatural altogether?
Regardless, personally… I don’t care. Like, yes, absolutely equal rights to love who you want. Absolutely should be codified into law. Don’t get me wrong… everyone should have that right… and equal access to healthcare, and the rights to decide what happens to and in one’s body.
But personally… I don’t care. I don’t care if you specifically are gay, or if you’ve had six abortions in the last year. It just doesn’t matter- and it really, really Shouldn’t matter at all.
That people are trying to make it matter… trying to discriminate and make it illegal? Yes. That matters. That’s wrong and evil. Their hatred is something that we need to stand against.
