“Systematic reviews of controlled clinical studies of treatments used by chiropractors have found no evidence that chiropractic manipulation is effective, with the possible exception of treatment for back pain.[8] A 2011 critical evaluation of 45 systematic reviews concluded that the data included in the study “fail[ed] to demonstrate convincingly that spinal manipulation is an effective intervention for any condition.”[10] Spinal manipulation may be cost-effective for sub-acute or chronic low back pain, but the results for acute low back pain were insufficient.[11] No compelling evidence exists to indicate that maintenance chiropractic care adequately prevents symptoms or diseases.[12]”
Correct, they are Doctors of Chiropractic.
Unfortunately a lot of misinformation exists which has hurt the field.
Oddly, people have no problem shitting all over this profession but yet religiously trust Western medicine and pharmaceuticals… And people still die.
Maybe lead with facts instead of spreading FUD?
its not just not helpful, it can be deadly/dangerous.
strokes are triggered by these idiots.
https://www.ahajournals.org/doi/full/10.1161/01.str.32.5.1054
Thank your pointing this out. It’s not just any stroke too, it’s primarily vertebral/basilar artery distribution strokes. Those supply the brain stem which includes such necessary functions as control of breathing and consciousness. You don’t want a stroke anywhere, but particularly not there.
Some chiropractors might swing back that, you’ve only showed correlation not causation. Well, when we have no clear evidence of chiropractic neck manipulation being helpful for anything, and we have a likely very dangerous correlation, the clinical parsimony is just not there. So no one is going to run that study (give a large amount of people neck manipulation, a large amount of people no neck manipulation, and compare rates of stroke that occur afterwards), it would be very unethical, no institutional review board would ever approve that study as ethical to perform.
And it makes a lot of sense too, the vertebral artery is encased in the neck vertebrae, so violent movements of the neck vertebrae can stretch and tear those arteries. Those tears, called a dissection, can sometimes obstruct blood flow all on their own, but more often create a spot for blood clots to form that then move onward into the brain and basilar artery (since there’s turbulent blood flow and a defect in the smooth artery wall that normally prevents your blood from clotting). So please, no violent neck movements for any reason, chiropractor or otherwise.
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This. My friend had a triple stroke shortly after having neck manipulation done by a standin for his usual chiropractor. Luckily he survived, but it has very much opened my eyes to how dangerous it can be.
Yeah, I was coming in here to say similar.
Chiropractors aren’t just not effective, they are fucking dangerous.
Strokes, but also broken necks.
And some of these quacks do “adjustments” on children and infants.
Saw that on episode of Bullshit with Penn and Teller. Anyone who would do that to a baby should be imprisoned for life.
Yeah, the last time I went to a chiropractor for back pain, they also “corrected” my neck which in the past felt good but this time it just immediately pulled a muscle in my neck and left me in pain and barely able to turn my head for weeks.
It’s better now, but I’ll never go back to a chiropractor again because of the risk of making things worse for essentially no benefit.
Also animals, I saw a video of someone doing it to a pit bull and after he cracked the dogs neck the pit gave him the “I’m going to rip your fucking throat out” look.
It’s straight up animal abuse.
Anything a chiropractor can do that will actually help, a PT can do better. They’ll also teach you what exercises to do to prevent needing to see them again.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often, and take more of your money over time.
A chiropractor is way cheaper than PT. Money is such a limiting factor for so many people that, while your advice is true, it has a similar vibe to telling a broke person with car trouble to just pay a mechanic to fix it. It’s the best option but I don’t blame them for trying something less expensive.
Paying money to get nothing and still have the original problem is not the inexpensive option though. These con artists are just stealing from people who can’t afford to be stolen from.
But maybe you get a bonus, worse, problem from the chiro? Got to look on the bright side : D
I stopped reading at bonus, where do I sign??
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Medicine has a history of being wrong while we learn which things work and which things don’t. Supplementary, Complementary and Alternative Medicine has a history of being wrong while its practitioners try to carve out a niche in the dark spots that we haven’t figured out yet and then dig in to fight to the death (of their patients) once their foundations are shown to be wrong. Look at homeopathy, for example: proven to be wrong time and time again but still you’ll find homeopathic products on shelves in stores across the world, even in areas with regulated markets.
Just because there are things we haven’t fully explained or discovered yet doesn’t mean that the first snake oil salesman to stake a claim on the unknown owns it. Being right takes time and new age woo-woo garbage isn’t a shortcut worth taking.
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I also wouldn’t blame someone for trying a cheaper option, but I WOULD blame the “cheaper option” mechanic if he sold you a $100 pair of aura cleansing fuzzy dice to keep your engine from overheating?
Then blame the healthcare system that charges people thousands of dollars for a routine doctor’s appointment.
I already do.
But I don’t see how that disaster justifies selling snake oil.
Jesus fuck, it’s like you guys are intentionally misunderstanding what I’m saying. All I’ve said is that I get why people go see chiropractors instead of doctors. I’m not advocating anything. I’m trying to have a discussion with you people and all you’ll do is set up straw men and virtue signal at them. Consider me done with this bullshit
All I’ve said is that I get why people go see chiropractors instead of doctors.
If that’s all you said, I agreed with that part. Why did you keep arguing with me?
If that’s all you said, I agreed with that part. Why did you keep arguing with me?
I see people doing this so often (on the internet especially) and it honestly baffles me. The best I’ve ever been able to rationalize it is that people are often far more interested in arguing their own points and saying what they believe than actually listening to and understanding others or having a real debate. That may be overly simplistic but it’s how I cope.
When is the last time you went to a hospital and saw a chiropractic department? When was the last time you went to a hospital and saw an orthopedics department? I have never had an MD recommend I see a chiropractor, but I have been sent to an orthopedist who sent me to PT. It worked.
That’s entirely beside the point. The question is, when was the last time you left a doctor’s office with a $40 bill? If you don’t have money to pay a doctor then you’ll never even hear their advice much less be in a position to take it.
Which is completely irrelevant to the legitimacy of chiropractic.
A lot of it can be done at home without a pt. Foam rollers and yoga mats are your friend. Even better if you can get a second pair of hands that know how to pop a back properly.
Physical therapists have definitely taught me reparative exercises that I would never in a million years have thought of on my own. PT is a god damned miracle drug.
I’m not saying that they aren’t and can’t be helpful. What I’m saying is that thanks to the internet and tons of books on the subject you can do a lot of stuff yourself without spending the money or the time going to a therapist.
If you need it, you need it, but some of us can learn most of this stuff elsewhere and/or go to a pt for a few lessons and then handle the rest at home.
Also I’m talking about what a chiropractor would do, not what a pt would do. To put both on the same level is an insult to everyone who isn’t a chiropractor.
This is a great point. My MiL is a chiropractor (a non-quacky one), and she incorporated a lot of PT into her practice. Additionally, I read a couple years ago that PTs are beginning to incorporate the good things from chiro (whatever they are. I’m not a doctor) into their own practice.
A roundabout way of saying that we learned some things from chiro, but PT was always the future.
I see my chiropractor once ever couple of years, I do most my own chiropractic stuff myself so I only visit her when I can’t deal with it. She knows I’m not gonna come back for a mother year or 3 so she doesn’t even tell me to book.
You can also search out a GP that is a DO Instead of an MD in the US.
They still learn osteopathic manipulation, which is a broader form of manipulation not limited to the spine that helps with stretching-type exercises. But they are certified (often with the same board exams even) and licensed on par with MDs. Many clinics have DOs among their providers.
Important caveat of “in the US”. In most countries, osteopaths are basically the same as chiropractors. In the US, DO licensing is the same as MD licensing, so they do have to learn real science and medicine in addition to the fake science and medicine of osteopathy. Personally, I wouldn’t aim for a DO as my Dr., but if I already had one that I liked, I wouldn’t worry about it too much. Osteopathic schools are easier to get into than medical schools, cause we have more people that want to get their MD than we have schools to teach them, so plenty of those people become DO’s.
Actually, outside the US, the DO training is 7 years, same as a medical doctor. I chose a DO for my primary care doctor because they have papatory skills (i.e. they actually touch someone) that regular doctors refer out.
Really depends on the country, though. Many countries don’t have “DO” as a profession cause they only need one type of evidence based medical degree, so anyone who does osteopathy is basically equivalent to a chiropractor or other type of witch doctor.
I can definitely respect the perception that they interact with you more, and I’m glad you have a doctor that works well for you.
This is incorrect. You are likely confused due to the fact that the names of the fields are similar.
Osteopathy /=/ osteopathic
I’ll discuss the fields as the are in the US, as I am not aware of how they are in other countries.
- Chiropractors go through their own degree programs through their own colleges.
- Osteopaths are homeopathic practitioners (not doctors, and they refer to their customers as clients, they are legally not allowed to refer to them as patients) and are alternative medicine practicioners.
- MDs receive a medical degree and are doctors.
- DOs receive a medical degree (an MD) as well as an additional 300+ hours of osteopathic study through their medical school to receive a second medical degree certification - this is NOT the same as the homeopathic study, this is the study of the bones, joints, nerves, and how they all work together as a whole.
The AOA only recently (2010) decided to recommend that DO’s no longer be called osteopaths. As they still practice and teach osteopathic manipulation, it’s not inaccurate to still refer to them as osteopaths. When they abandon that pseudoscience and turn completely to evidence based medicine, I’ll refer to them as DO’s. Right now, all DO’s are osteopaths, but not all osteopaths are DO’s.
It doesn’t have to do with homeopathy. Osteopathy is it’s own pseudoscience alternative medicine and it is what they’re trained as a side to their medical training. They do act like this training somehow makes them more holistic than MDs, but that’s been proven to be largely false and they generally do not use that osteopathic manipulation in their practice.
Some non-doctor osteopaths might use homeopathy, but the basic theory of what osteopathy is remains pseudoscience even when it’s done by DOs.
Osteopathy = Osteopathic.
Thank you, I didn’t realize that homeopathy was not general term - I thought it was a generalized term for alternative medicine that wasn’t eastern medicine, but I was wrong.
Anyway, I do still have some things to clear up for you.
You still seem to think that DOs are spending their 300+ additional hours after the MD learning the pseudoscience, which isn’t the case. Those hours are spent with neurologists, orthopedics, physical therapists, and other fellowships and residencies only provided by the MEDICAL SCHOOL - which would absolutely not allow any pseudoscience within their walls. Yes, they might do very minor manipulation in their practices, but it’s what’s learned through neurologists, physical therapists, or orthopedists, etc. (in addition to their MD residenciea just like the MDs in family practice, OB, surgery, dermatology, oncology, etc). The goal of a DO is to treat a patient as the sum of their parts rather than symptomatically.
Patient-first rather than symptom-first. (DO vs MD)
Osteopathic rather than allopathic. (DO vs MD)
-If I go to an MD with an earache, I’ll have my ear checked out and maybe find nothing wrong but walk out with Prednisone to see if it helps. Prednisone does nothing but make me gain water weight.
-If I go to a DO with an earache, I’ll have my ear checked out and maybe find nothing wrong, but he might think since there was nothing obvious that maybe there’s a nerve pinched near the top of my neck so he’ll have me stand to look at my posture and notice that I’m standing awkwardly with my hips not level, checks out my ankles and realizes I’ve started to lean in on one of my ankles and writes an Rx for a custom insole and exercises to strengthen my ankle. The issue with the ankle was causing my hips to lean, which caused my back to curve the other way to compensate, which pinched a nerve in my neck, which caused an earache. Wear the insole while strengthening the ankle, earache goes away.(This is a true story of something that happened to me, not an example of every experience with a MD or a DO)
There is nothing precluding and MD from also searching for the underlying cause, but allopathic medicine looks to treat symptoms.
Osteopathy is 100% the movement of muscles and bones and not taught in medical school.
Osteopathy /=/ osteopathic
What you’re describing is a pseudoscience. It’s a pseudoscience that IS allowed in osteopathic medical schools because, you guessed it, they’re osteopathic. It is not evidence based medicine. I understand that DOs proclaim thatt they are more holistic than other practitioners. As I said, studies have shown that is not the case.
https://www.degruyter.com/document/doi/10.7556/jaoa.2014.166/html
https://www.acpjournals.org/doi/10.7326/M22-3723Edit: To be clear, I’m an RN, and we’re taught a whole hell of a lot more pseudoscience than DO’s are.
I have to ask: what do you think “holistic” means? You’ve said twice (once in each comment I’ve know replied to) that DOs “think they are more holistic than others”
Do you think it relates to holy?
It doesn’t. It means that’s parts of something are interconnected and can only be considered in reference to the whole of itself.
Which is the key difference between osteopathic and allopathic medicine, so of course they believe they are more holistic.I’m not sure what you were trying to prove with those links. The first explains that while evidence based medicine uses statistics, it is a specific way of using data to determine clinical care - that it can determine the best route of care for the largest group of people that works most of the time, which is great for most people most of the time…but what about when you fall outside that group (my addition - yes, they could try the second choice when the first doesn’t work or the third next, but that takes time and suffering). Whereas DOs consider the the first choice option as well as the outside options by evaluating everything. Consider the story above of my earache. That’s what the link was describing. I’m not sure what you got from it, or what that has to do with being holistic (though considering outside treatment options that might involve other parts of the body would be considered holistic). The thing is, statistics are great to describe how a population reacts to treatments, not an individual. Appendectomies have a 95% success rate, but that doesn’t mean that you have a 95% chance of surviving one. But evidence based treatments are based on the success rates, not the individual - that’s where the patient-first idea come into play, DOs consider the patient as a whole rather than only the statistics when the statistics don’t line up with the patient.
The second link says that healthcare costs between MDs and DOs are similar. Neither is more expensive, neither is less expensive. I’m not sure what that has to do with being holistic (either the actual definition or whatever you may think it means).
You’re making the claim that what I described previously is pseudoscience because a DO saw that my ankle has turned inward and offered ankle strengthening exercises. Ankle strengthening exercises aren’t pseudoscience, there is data behind it - the idea that it could cause ear pain due to the other issues it causes certainly would not be common, but it is explainable. Pseudoscience is something that uses no explanatory reasoning and avoids peer review. DOs routinely publish their findings.
That’s why I specifically said in the US. You have to be careful, though, some DO schools are easier to get into than some MD schools but there are also DO schools that are harder to get into than some MD schools (MD schools in the Caribbean for example) so unless you are being hyper vigilant about which school your GP went to, you’re still just relying on the fact that they all passed the same or equivalent boards anyway.
In my corner of the world, most CPs are also PTs. Or rather the other way around: they use chiropractic as one of many therapeutic means in their portfolio. I have to say, I very much appreciate this approach, as it relives the initial pain/discomfort but also addresses the underlying problem.
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Also I think a massage therapist will tend to be more educated on the muscles and how they work together than a masseuse
A massage therapist tends not to provide the “extras” that you can get from a strip mall masseuse.
I come for the extras.
That’s what they’re for
Just make sure they’re not a cop first.
That would not be a happy ending to the story.
Depends on for whom. A good bust makes nearly everybody happy.
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I don’t care, I’ll come on a cop.
In some places and depending on the specific details, the punishment for that offense wouldn’t include jail time. Instead of a crime, it’s just a penile code violation.
Or after the extras.
do you want happy ending?
yes, heck you know what, lets have a happy middle too… and a happy beginning… ok make the whole thing happy please!
My wife, bless her innocent heart, still doesn’t get this. She’s been to every strip mall, Groupon massage studio in the area and is constantly like “wow, I can’t figure out why these $75/hr massages are so hit or miss.”
I have tried explaining to her that it’s because she doesn’t have a penis, but she still doesn’t get it.
How prevalent are these? I’ve always wanted to try but can never tell which is a safe place to approach
I can’t believe I know this, but RubMaps used to (might still be?) a thing. If you looked at the outside of them on Google Maps you could very quickly start to pick up on the patterns among the listed locations.
Yup. At my first massage appointment, before I even got on the table, she told me where I hurt and why I was hurting that way. And she was 100% correct.
As a massage therapist that used to work in education (director of education at a massage school and taught anatomy/pathology) results will vary wildly across the States. The majority of states only started licensing in the last 10-15 years, and of course requirements for licensing and supervision varies. Some schools teach enough anatomy to get their students to pass the tests, then focus their time teaching spa type massage (aromatherapy, wraps, hot stones, etc.) or energy work. Not saying there’s anything wrong with that, but it serves a different purpose.
There are definitely schools that exist that focus more on therapeutic/rehabilitative work, but even then the challenge is finding a therapist with an up to date approach who doesn’t buy the old school “no pain no gain” who kicks the shit out of you. Massage shouldn’t hurt. But if your find the right therapist for you, they’re worth their weight in gold.
Massages should hurt if your body is full of deep tissue knots like mine is. My rhomboids and forearms are basically just knots most of the time.
But that’s largely on me for not stretching.
Just FYI, the generally preferred term these days is “massage therapist.” Last I heard “masseuse” and “masseur” (the masculine version) have an implicit sexual connotation that “massage therapist” does not. Unless that’s what you were recommending instead of chiropractic, in which case carry on!
Also it has a more professional connotation. RMTs go to school and work hard to be qualified and capable of their jobs.
As my sister who is a MT always said: “A massage therapist gives you a massage, a masseuse gives you a happy ending.”
This. I’m seriously considering finding the money for an at home sauna. Get my muscles nice and warm and relaxed and then stretch the shit out of them.
then stretch the shit out of them.
Just be careful. There is such a thing as over stretching. I fucked up my knees stretching after a hot yoga session and could barely walk for a couple of years.
Everything in moderation.
You don’t have to tell me anything, seriously. I have fucked up my back no less than 3 times. The last time I fucked my back up was about a year ago and I busted my shoulder at the same time. My back is still tight and off in a few places and while my shoulder isn’t at 100% I have like 90% of rom back and more to come as I keep working on it. I have and continue to fix myself all without the help of a pt.
I had hoped that a line like that wouldn’t be taken at face but I guess the Amelia Bedelias are making there way from reddit.
One of the worst overstretches I did was in a pool. With my body weight canceled out I could get into deeper stretches, like by putting my leg up on the edge of the pool. Afterwards I realized I’d overdone it. lol
That must have sucked/hurt 🤕 … But it sounded like a real funny story for some reason…
Mi bad…
I go to a sports physiotherapy group. Much better results when the goal is to help me recover so I don’t need to come to them.
That’s not exactly the truth.
Yes, there are plenty of medical practitioners that poorly represent their profession. I’m sure you could easily apply the same logic here to PT, NP, DO, MD, etc.
What should be emphasized is that Chiropractic has heavily evolved, like any other healthcare field and there is a high degree of overlap between PT and DC methodologies. So much so, PT has lobbied for adoption of joint manipulation.
A good DC won’t limit themselves to 5 minutes visits for a quick adjustment. A good DC is evidence-based, incorporates rehab and education, and provides care to the body and systems.
PTs are also broadly not very helpful with very limited knowledge. I don’t think I’ve ever met somebody who was genuinely helped by PT, though I’m sure some of them out there take their jobs seriously.
Physical therapy changed my life. Not just that, but my PTs actually had knowledge and experience with my rare condition – more so than any doctor I’ve ever seen to this day. I’m sorry that hasn’t been your experience, but I assure you that there are serious PTs out there.
There are always unicorns in every profession, though I’m glad it worked out so well for you.
in my country a PT is a personal trainer, so I understand where you’re coming from if that’s what you mean. But I think in this instance PT means physiotherapist
Oh no I’m referring to physiotherapist
Like any profession that is service based it is “your results may vary”. My pt has helped me with exercises that have helped me get past tennis elbow and shoulder tendonitis.
Have you met somebody that ACTUALLY does their PT suggested exercises? I do know some people who said that PT isn’t working but then again, they don’t even follow basic recommendations.
Yes, several. Including myself for a couple different issues growing up. Eventually I learned enough about the human body to realize how useless the exercises were for the problems I was having exercised properly which finally sorted me out. I just figured I’d gotten unlucky with the two I had, but the more people I meet who’ve spent time in PT the more I realized they might not be as competent as you’d hope they’d be.
A chiropractor will just tell you to come to them more often,
If you are going to one that does, you are going to the wrong one. There are a lot of quacks in professions and some of them are AMA licensed doctors too.
I was very skeptical of them until a friend recommended one he personally knew for my painful shoulder - he even offered to pay for the visit if it didn’t help. I was amazed when I walked out of the office completely pain free.
Many professional sports athletes seek out massage and chiro with good results because they cannot afford miss events and can’t test positive for the drugs that many conventional doctors would push.
There is a place for all avenues of remedies depending on the problem. Incompetents can be found in all professions. That said, is far too easy for a poser to set themselves up as a chiropractor.Incompetents can be found in all professions
seems like thats the crackocracker industry problem, they simply dont have any standards. I’ll grant you there may be some crackocrackers who actually have some skills… maybe, but if a patient has to go to 20 of them to find “that one good one”, then that industry is garbage
I would also point out that any pro quackocracker post you see here is the one time they might have helped someone just out of random chance, those people are loud and tell everyone how great their quackocracker is. Its simple confirmation bias, they have a sample size of one, themselves, this is not how data works.
This is a very north american opinion, which also happens to be very condescending in tone, while op explicitly dismiss commenters who disagree with them. The practices designated by the various terms, such as chiropractors, osteopath, physical therapists, etc. vary depending on the countries and contexts, especially in some european countries where chiropractors must answer to the same standards and regulations as the other medical professions. This should be taken into account.
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Actually, a DC goes to school for 4 years to learn what they do. A PT used to go for 4 years undergrad, then 2 years for the MS. Now you really can’t practice without a PhD. When a DC says they can do everything a PT can do plus Rx certain things, it really pisses PTs off. They work within the scope of a MD’s direction. DC don’t. Both use Phillip Greenman’s Principles of Manual Medicine in their training (an Osteopathic text).
in the us, again, it doesn’t happen like that in a lot of countries.
Well regulated snake oil is still snake oil. Just cause a regulatory board says its relatively safe doesnt mean its actually effective. Chiropractory is no more effective than a good massage, and you know what if thats all they advertised it as then fine. But it aint theres a whole bunch of woo mixed into it.
They run the risk of injuring their customers, with the way that they “manipulate” the neck and spine.
There are people who can generally help those with back issues or whatnot, they’re called doctors.
You can just get a good massage. They feel good and you are probably more likely dying driving back and forth from the place.
I literally said that in my comment. No better than a good massage, was meant to imply that its about as good if not worse than a good massage.
That’s just not true, regulations imply healthcare reimbursement, which implies strict control on the treatment and the practicians, because insurance companies hate paying.
Osteopathy was originally pseudoscientific quackery, but has long abandoned the woo crap that was not supported by medical evidence. Osteopathic medicine today is grounded firmly and exclusively in actual science.
Physical therapy is, and always has been, medical science based therapy.
Chiropractic therapy is founded upon disproven theories and requires no actual medical training. The industry regulates its own certifications, and chiropractors are taught a perverted concept of physiology.
…from a north american perspective.
Those definitions are just not true in a lot of countries outside of the us.
Considering osteopathy was invented in the United States by an American, who was basically just making shit up, and all of the underlying theories and mechanisms of action have been thoroughly debunked, I’d say that a lie is a lie anywhere in the world, regardless of legal status.
Psychoanalysis was invented almost at the same time in Vienna and a lot of freudian concepts have since been critiqued due to his biases. Does it mean Austria forever owns psychoanalysis and anything that could be discovered since? There is a difference between a field of research, a scientific discipline and a paradigm. Debunking a theory that was invented more than a century ago doesn’t disqualify every research done after that. Also, paradigm change often comes from opposing theories from the same field they oppose. If we did like that, there wouldn’t be a lot of research field left standing.
You accept yourself that osteopathy was able to go beyond its suspicious origin, but refuse to imagine that chiropractice could do the same. Which is why I reiterate: chiropractice requiring no medical training is a north american thing.
It means anyone anywhere practicing Freudian therapy is peddling debunked medicine.
Chiros anywhere still crack your joints, even though it’s an imaginary benefit and a very real risk. Patients of chiros would be better served in physical therapy or massage therapy. There’s nowhere on earth that this isn’t true.
You’re just presenting nuanced conclusions as overwhelming truths to put weight on your opinion, while taking a few shortcuts. You’re entitled to your opinion of course, but that doesn’t mean you get to dismiss any contradicting ones by deciding unilaterally what the words mean.
Chiropractice in the US might be just “cracking joints”, but it’s not true everywhere. If you can’t accept that, then I don’t know what to tell you.
Are you saying that Chiropractors don’t crack joints in other countries?
Generally agree with this, but one time when I was little landed on my back on the edge of a trampoline and really hurt my back. After some back and forth my parents took me to a chiropractor who fixed my pain, saying I probably moved a disk onto a nerve or something like that.
So I think pain caused by physical movement of the spine like my injury is totally legit as a reason to go to one
I went to a chiro for a while and it did help but I think it was mainly because they’d have me do a fairly comprehensive set of stretches at the beginning of each visit. I stopped going to the chiro but I keep doing the stretches.
You know it’s a legit therapy if a dead doctor told you in a seance about it.
I like the doctors that didn’t die.
Hell yes! The creator decided he wanted to be a doctor, but he didn’t want to go to doctor school. So he made up his own medicine—with blackjack, and hookers!
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It seems to me that atlas orthogonal adjustment is more of a real thing offered than just getting your neck twisted, then again as someone who probably needs that (I had whiplash many years ago) I have no idea if the places near me have the equipment for it (or x-ray stuff needed) so that along with paperwork/scheduling has stopped me.
This is one of those things, like acupuncture, that I will not fault anyone else for engaging in. There’s no hard evidence that they are effective, but if it helps you with your problem (even if it’s all in your head), then it was worth it, was it not?
I know people who have had their lives improved and their mobility restored thanks to chiropractors. I also know one or two who swear they got scammed for years because the pain always comes back really quickly.
I may not personally recommend a chiro to someone as a solution to their back or neck pain, but I won’t discourage them from going if they are considering it.
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That’s a weird standard. People see physicians for years because of chronic issues.
Are you saying my brothers oncologist isn’t legit because he has to see him for life ?
Not all their techniques are garbage. DO are trained in manipulation as well. The basic premise of chiropractics is what’s at fault. I’ve seen newer chiropractics switch to more PT style of treatment. No idea if that’s in their scope but I know one who rarely adjust people. It’s mainly massage, weight lifting and body mechanics.
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DO’s manipulation training is largely horseshit too, but at least they won’t cure cancer by cracking your neck.
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In all fairness, I have never seen a DO give an adjustment. I just know they are trained to do it.
Most DOs do not. They’re DO’s because the medical school they got accepted in was an osteopathic school. Not because they actually believe in it.
For what it’s worth, as a massage therapist I’ve interviewed with some chiropractors and know plenty of other therapists who have worked for them. The number of chiropractors NOT doing some kind of shady billing or breaking some other scope of practice/ethical boundaries is shockingly small. I’m sure they exist, but in swapping stories with other therapists over almost 2 decades, I might know 1.
For example, one Chiro I interviewed with had his “program” set as patients being categorized into “back” or “neck” patients. Depending on which you were categorized into determined how many sessions (manipulation plus other therapies) per week for 8 weeks the patient would receive. After 8 weeks he would reassess. Seriously waiting 8 weeks to see if it’s helping. He knew what insurances would cover, so he cookie cuttered his whole practice. From what it looked like I don’t think people “graduated” by getting better, moreso just once they ran out of money.
Seriously. I had a friend extolling how good his experience with his chiropractor was, in response to my tale about physical therapy after a skiing accident. I ended the argument pretty quickly by asking “how often do you have to go back”
Everyone will have different experiences. Going to a chiropractor helped me with my posture in the long term. After my first visit it was no longer uncomfortable to stand up straight. I used to have this lump in the back of my neck and whatever they did made that go away. I did initially go for back pain and I can’t say if the visits helped with back pain in the long term but the adjustment did help me with my posture.
Do you still go? If not, how many times did you go?
I went nine times. I don’t think I needed to keep going but I kept agreeing to the next appointment lol. My HSA covered it at least. Except for the first few appointments I’d go once a month. I don’t plan on going again for now.
I recently learned that chiropractors in Switzerland are very different. They are all medical doctors and need to fulfill strict requirements so they can work as chiropractor. It is also a common thing here to go to chiropractors and I have never heard of any accidents.
Imagine hating chiropractors so much you have to downvote a true fact without spending a second looking it up yourself.
those are ‘licensed physical therapists’… the few good things that might be attributed to chiropractors are ready done by actual medical professionals… even here in the u.s.
the difference is, we allow quacks to pretend to be ‘doctors’ here. a certain subset of the population are drawn to the homeopathic, pseudo-science nature of it.
Quick reminder that Physios and Chiros outside America face different rules for accreditation, and may not warrant similar judgement.
YSK that Medical Doctors are also not Chiropractors. This is why the letters after their names are different. M.D. means Medical Doctor, and D.C. means Doctor of Chiropractic. The major differences in their educations being Surgery, and Drugs for the MDs, and Nutrition, Physical Therapy, Manual Therapy are studied more by DCs. Depending on licensure laws both can order imaging, laboratory testing, and prescribe massage or physical therapy. Also the MD will only have 3-7 minutes to spend with you, and the DC will have much more time to do intake, history, therapy, and to explain what is going on with you and what can be done to improve your situation. Here’s a fun fact for ya, some of the injuries attributed to joint manipulation, and this is well documented, were from barbers, kung fu teachers, and yes, MDs and PTs who went to a weekend course in manipulation, instead of the numerous semesters of learning that a DC will have as part of their normal coursework.
@NataliePortland, what’s your issue? Why do you care so much about this particular topic?
I’ve been cracking nearly every joint in my body for my whole life. So, I understand that it can feel amazing when you get 10 good pops down your spine.
On two occasions (over 40 years) my neck was so stiff, it caused incredible pain to move it at all.
Both of those times, someone I know recommended a chiropractor. Each time, I went in for an initial appointment and a follow up, and every single time, I left feeling exactly as miserable as when I walked in the door.
The first guy karate chopped my neck, which made it hurt more for the rest of the day. And the second guy just put some electrodes on my back and left the room while the machine zapped me for ten minutes. Neither of them ever claimed to know what was wrong or how to fix it. They just said, “We can try this and see how you feel. 🤷🏻♂️”
I’ve seen no evidence that they can do anything more than what I was able to figure out with a chair in 4th grade.
They just said, “We can try this and see how you feel.
They know they’re giving you a placebo. Sometimes it “works”, other times it doesn’t.
Yeah NataliePortland, why do you care that people are getting ripped off and, in some cases, injured or killed for no benefit? They’re not even you, it makes no sense.
I could start spending my time bashing various professions, I suppose, but I’ve got better things to do. However, since you are obviously interesting in people being ripped off, injured or killed here’s this, the first article that came up on search from PubMed:
Our prescription drugs kill us in large numbers
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25355584/Abstract
Our prescription drugs are the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer in the United States and Europe. Around half of those who die have taken their drugs correctly; the other half die because of errors, such as too high a dose or use of a drug despite contraindications. Our drug agencies are not particularly helpful, as they rely on fake fixes, which are a long list of warnings, precautions, and contraindications for each drug, although they know that no doctor can possibly master all of these. Major reasons for the many drug deaths are impotent drug regulation, widespread crime that includes corruption of the scientific evidence about drugs and bribery of doctors, and lies in drug marketing, which is as harmful as tobacco marketing and, therefore, should be banned. We should take far fewer drugs, and patients should carefully study the package inserts of the drugs their doctors prescribe for them and independent information sources about drugs such as Cochrane reviews, which will make it easier for them to say “no thanks”.
It is a free article, so you can read the whole thing, if you wish to be better informed.
The second one is from US News and World Report:
Death by Prescription
https://health.usnews.com/health-news/patient-advice/articles/2016-09-27/the-danger-in-taking-prescribed-medicationsEnjoy.
No professions are being bashed here, just liars and thieves. One can be a professional thief, of course, but it’s not a respectable line of work and I won’t waste too much time hand-wringing over what they and their supporters feel about what I say.
Here’s one simple test: for a risk to be acceptable, there must be a benefit which can be achieved through taking that risk. Low risk, high benefit is good and high risk, low benefit is bad. I’m not going to defend the whole prescription drug industry because obviously it has its share of shitheads. Still, the broad range of products tends to fall on the favorable side of the risk/benefit balance when used as intended which is something I can’t say for no-benefit practices like chiropractic, osteopathic or any of the other imitation medicine offerings out there.
