- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
- cross-posted to:
- technology@beehaw.org
More than 200 Substack authors asked the platform to explain why it’s “platforming and monetizing Nazis,” and now they have an answer straight from co-founder Hamish McKenzie:
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either—we wish no-one held those views. But some people do hold those and other extreme views. Given that, we don’t think that censorship (including through demonetizing publications) makes the problem go away—in fact, it makes it worse.
While McKenzie offers no evidence to back these ideas, this tracks with the company’s previous stance on taking a hands-off approach to moderation. In April, Substack CEO Chris Best appeared on the Decoder podcast and refused to answer moderation questions. “We’re not going to get into specific ‘would you or won’t you’ content moderation questions” over the issue of overt racism being published on the platform, Best said. McKenzie followed up later with a similar statement to the one today, saying “we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.”
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So they’re Nazis
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No, it does not “make it worse”.
In fact, stamping out dissent and controlling people is incredibly effective. Ask any dictator.
Control is effective and necessary when it comes to people actively trying to damage society. No, I’m not supporting dictatorship or authoritarianism, just pointing out that control is effective.
Being a sect of destructive assholes doesn’t mean you should get a platform.
Submitted for good faith discussion: Substack shouldn’t decide what we read. The reason it caught my attention is that it’s co-signed by Edward Snowden and Richard Dawkins, who evidently both have blogs there I never knew about.
I’m not sure how many of the people who decide to comment on these stories actually read up about them first, but I did, such as by actually reading the Atlantic article linked. I would personally feel very uncomfortable about voluntarily sharing a space with someone who unironically writes a post called “Vaccines Are Jew Witchcraftery”. However, the Atlantic article also notes:
Experts on extremist communication, such Whitney Phillips, the University of Oregon journalism professor, caution that simply banning hate groups from a platform—even if sometimes necessary from a business standpoint—can end up redounding to the extremists’ benefit by making them seem like victims of an overweening censorship regime. “It feeds into this narrative of liberal censorship of conservatives,” Phillips told me, “even if the views in question are really extreme.”
Structurally this is where a comment would usually have a conclusion to reinforce a position, but I don’t personally know what I support doing here.
IDGAF if it feeds into the narrative. It also shuts down a recruitment pipeline. It reduces their reach. It makes the next generation less likely to continue the ideology. De-platforming is a powerful tool that should be reserved for only the most crucial fights, but the fight against Nazi is one of those fights.
The Nazis were already full-blown conspiracy theorists. EVERYTHING is spun to feed into their narrative. That ship has sailed.
A platform operator needs to AT MINIMUM demonetize the content and censure it, and is likely only being responsible if they ban it outright. If you aren’t prepared to wade into the fraught, complex world of content moderation, don’t run a content platform.
Tolerating Naziism and allowing it to use social tools to spread its hate is what makes it worse.
“we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.” I mean they are litterally Condoning bigotry.
“His response similarly doesn’t engage other questions from the Substackers Against Nazis authors, like why these policies allow it to moderate spam and newsletters from sex workers but not Nazis.”
Doesn’t seem very consistent.
Substack: Nazis are cool, but you better not be selling sex related shit! We have standards!
“We do not condone Nazi propaganda, but we are very concerned about sex work causing social degeneracy.”
Substack is likely very concerned about the purity of the volk
Condone (transitive verb): To overlook, forgive, or disregard (an offense) without protest or censure.
Neat.
Funny how words mean things
Interesting, I generally think of the Merriam-Webster definition:
to regard or treat (something bad or blameworthy) as acceptable, forgivable, or harmless
Or perhaps even further than that: actually approving of something. Guess “condone” is a little weaker of a word than I thought. But its popularity calls for being extra careful of even overlooking wrongdoing.
And then people wonder why we’re so scared of Facebook if the fediverse is “supposed to be open”.
The answer is literally in front of you, people!
Good for them. I’m all for allowing people make their own choices about what kind of content they want to see instead of a corporation/government deciding for them.
I can’t think of a single thing we’ve succesfully gotten rid of by banning it. I however can think of several examples where it has had an opposite effect.
Nazi Germany. We banned the fuck out of them and it worked out great until people started to forget why.
I totally agree.
If I don’t want to see something, I should be able to block it myself.
I don’t want other people deciding what I should and should not see. That’s patronizing.
if the nazis come into power, you will not be able to “decide not to see them”
I don’t think preemptive fascism is the solution. The world many people seem to be advocating for here doesn’t honestly seem that much different from one led by nazies. They just replace jews and gays with other groups of people they don’t like.
you’re conflating fascism with the actions necessary to stop fascism. you may want to read up on the “paradox of tolerance”. here’s the first sentence from the wikipedia page:
The paradox of tolerance states that if a society’s practice of tolerance is inclusive of the intolerant, intolerance will ultimately dominate, eliminating the tolerant and the practice of tolerance with them.
That logic is in conflict with itself. It’s literally advocating for intolerance to get rid of intolerance.
People are against nazies but meanwhile advocate we treat other groups they dont like the way nazies would treat jews. Be that millionaires/billionaires, capitalists, republicans or whatever. “Eat the rich”
I can’t get behind that. Daylight is the best disinfectant. I want nazies to be allowed to announce publicly that they’re nazies.
“The paradox of tolerance” as originally stated is not “in conflict with itself”, it is pointing out a conflict that exists within the idea of “tolerance as a moral good”. The point is that “tolerance” will eventually give way to “intolerance”… one way or another. So: pick your side wisely.
I think there are problems with the concept as it is started (others have proposed some in this post) but it’s trying to address the conflict.
That logic is in conflict with itself. It’s literally advocating for intolerance to get rid of intolerance.
this is why it’s called “the paradox of tolerance” my guy. did you even read the name?
People are against nazies but meanwhile advocate we treat other groups they dont like the way nazies would treat jews.
this is a bad faith representation of his argument. also, in this case, “people” is Karl Popper, a renowned philosopher with countless awards for his work on political science and philosophy. maybe you would understand his argument better if you actually read it.
Maybe you should read the whole page. Maybe then you’d learn why so many of us are against a fundraising platform which allows Nazi writers to earn money.
If you think curating what is allowed on a website is fascism, no one should listen to you at all because you clearly are talking about things you don’t understand.
The world many people seem to be advocating for here doesn’t honestly seem that much different from one led by nazies.
This is the absolute stupidest take I have ever seen. Read a goddamned book (or, actually understand what Nazis stand for) before you comment on things…
They just replace jews and gays with other groups of people they don’t like.
“Censorship and murdering entire classes of people are the same thing”
Monetization of such content is questionable for sure, but I’m affirmative about what he says about the propagation of such extreme views. Simply being unaware about such things won’t make them go away. People should know who they are and why they are so we can deal with them better. There’s alot we can do better but can’t do because of limited awareness and our own negative attitude to deal with them.
Jesus Christ censorship has become such a meaningless word now.
Yeps. It went from government actions to some company not wanting a Nazi troll.
TIL that Substack is apparently a bunch of crypto-fascists who expect people to believe they don’t support Nazis, they just give them money and a place at their table to talk about it.
I just want to make it clear that we don’t like Nazis either
Actions speak louder than words. Fuck Substack and fuck any platform that offers a safe haven for nazis.
“I don’t like Nazis… but you have to understand, they’re very profitable.”
“I want you to know that I don’t like nazis. But I am fine platforming them and profiting from them. Now here is some bullshit about silencing ‘ideas.’”
McKenzie followed up later with a similar statement to the one today, saying “we don’t like or condone bigotry in any form.
Condone:
verb accept and allow (behavior that is considered morally wrong or offensive) to continue
coded language for “we think Nazis have a point”
This tracks with my previous attempts at reporting that Sinfest guy. Posts hundreds of comics that blatantly break multiple official substack content guidelines and I get the effective equivalent of a promise for “action” combined with a dismissive eye roll. They completely ignored my follow-up email detailing the complete lack of action and the dozen or so new content guideline violations.
Gen Z needs to understand the historical lesson that the Blues Brothers taught those before them. Illinois Nazis exist, and some days they demonstrate, as per their right to freedom of speech - but this is as much as an opportunity to humiliate them and openly critique the mindset as anyone else. Dark little underground communities flourish behind closed doors.
Mckenzie needs to read that Reddit story about the bartender who kicked out a guy with the Third Reich eagle ensign on his shirt despite him quietly minding his own business. I really don’t want Substack to “suddenly become a Nazi bar.” I’m just a reader, but if I ever start a newsletter I may reconsider my platform. I am on a basic free plan for all Substack channels I read. I’ve thought about upgrading my subscription to some, but now I will hesitate.
