Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture
Lack of intergenerational teaching and connections to help kids mature when growing up
Macho culture existed long before the loneliness. It’s a different kind of macho culture now that is detrimental.
Previous generations had less destructive outlets for machismo than boys of today. Being part of a sports team meant that you had an outlet and a group that you shared common goals with.
I think maybe those words are true, but they are so generic they don’t say anything to me.
I think women has changed due to social media, and that’s causing the men loneliness.
Huh??? We’ve been uncommunicative, miserable fucks for much longer than the internet has been around.
No, male culture has changed far more due to propaganda, etc.
Men that have been captured by the “alpha” and “masculinity” culture don’t realize that it makes them fucking radioactive. They are literally the reason why women choose the bear. Boys thinking that they have to be hyperbolic, over-aggressive, possessive, manipulative assholes in order to be a “man” are the exact reason that they are lonely.
These men don’t have a god given right to just “have” a girlfriend.
I’m confused. Are women on social media interfering on man-to-man friendships?
Your first hint that this is a naive take is that you’re brushing off a societal issue to a single, external factor.
I would like to blame modern society but since the term “Lone Wolf” exists, I’m guessing it’s older than that.
there’s a big difference between the loner and the lonely
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
Edit: a little plug for https://lemmy.ca/c/mensliberation
Could not agree more feminism is just human rights by another name and human rights is not achieved by anyone till every gender , race , sexual orientation, religion or lack of, ability or disability are equal.
You dont have to agree even. That’s just the definition of feminism.
That word is egalitarianism. Ftfy.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/egalitarianism
Feminism is egalitarianism just as Black Lives Matter is egalitarianism.
Both recognize disparities for a specific marginalized group, and work to establish egalitarianism.
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We’re meant to be alone.
Humans are social animals
I need the most cynical take you have…
…nooooh, that’s too cynical.
We aren’t though. That’s just something we’re told.
The atomization of society. The process of a society breaking down into smaller, isolated units, where individuals are self-interested and self-sufficient. It can lead to a feeling of being alone even when surrounded by people.
I was thinking about it this morning.
Look at Beatle-mania or Spice Girl-mania.
Back in the day, 100 million people were aware of one big thing and it brought them together.
Today with the internet, you’ve got a million different ‘big things’ each with 100 fans.
We still have mass phenomenons and bringing 100 people together is plenty. What’s probably missing is local community.
Serious question.
What’s the last thing in entertainment that you think was known to everyone in the USA? I’m not talking about Taylor Swift dating a football player. I mean a brand new act coming out and all kinds of people excited.
I can’t think of anything.
What makes you think this is a gendered thing?
I don’t think it is a gendered thing, but there are societal expectations regarding men versus women that can complicate the issue
Anyone who has gendered expectations is not a friend. Avoid them.
Saying this doesn’t make the problem go away, it just makes you avoid the problem. Ironically, if you’re a man, this often makes the problem worse for you.
Women are better at being friends to each other. I’ve basically given up on trying to make friends with other men because they are terrible friends. At best, they make no effort at all at friendship and are completely passive, requiring you to call and make all the plans. At worst, they are hostile in various ways when you try to befriend them. It is very rare to meet another dude that makes effort to be a friend.
Edit: it’s soooo funny to see this comment being downvoted because it will only perpetuate your loneliness. You deserve it.
DUI laws.
What
What?
Lol. Bad joke. What I was getting at is people used to hang out at bars and drink more (alcohol use was worse). More generally, it’s a lack of third places and car-based city design. More, and more engaging in-home entertainment/Internet also probably plays a part. Though, it’s probably not a completely new phenomenon either, judging from art like Taxi Driver, Catcher In The Rye, etc. So, toxic or even plain masculinity likely makes it harder to make and keep close friends.
I’d bet female loneliness is also rising in modern society as well, due to modern phenomenon. Humans didn’t evolve to live like we are. We used to mostly live in small, close-knit tribes.
I’m fallowing now.🥴
I don’t know about the others but for me it’s because I’m shy as fuck and kind of insecure.
🫂
Sending hugs. We’ve got your back. 😁
Thank you!
There’s been a concerted effort over the last several decades to push a men vs women dynamic online, and most men don’t buy into it, so it’s really just been people shitting all over men without consequence. Just look at the other answers here focusing exclusively on how men can be blamed (edit: many better replies have been posted since I made this comment).
Quite likely pushed excessively by foreign propaganda.
There are multiple reasons for this. First of all due to the fact that a lot of infrastructure is based around cars society actively looses places for people to meet and hang out(I think this effect even has a name, but I’m not sure). Lack of places to interact with other people, and therefore lack of social interactions, causes a rise in loneliness. Then theres the problem with how men are supposed to act. We get told, that we shouldn’t “ask out” women in every day life, since its now considered creepy. For me this causes a certain type of being not sure where and when it is OK to ask someone out leading to me not doing it since I don’t want to get labeled as a creep. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to blame women for the male loneliness epidemic and there devinetively are a lot of men beeig creeps and asking someone out in absolutely the wrong situations, but this is something that needs to be said to understand the male loneliness epidemic. This also causes dating to take place online. Now the problem is, that online dating fucking sucks. Dating apps are useless, as long as you don’t want to sell your kidney to them, since they want you to keep using it. If dating apps were somewhat usefull they’d be out pf buisness quite fast.
Referenced in a lower comment, but that loss of a meet and hangout place is often called a “third place,” as opposed to work or home. The show Cheers is a depiction of a third place in that it’s a place where “everybody knows your name” and the norm is staying and chatting, not spending a few bucks and running out.
There are some interesting suppositions about how this loneliness became more and more endemic with the decline in bowling leagues. People, men in particular, just have fewer regular hangout activities and so get more and more lonely. Things like bowling leagues, lodges, and the corner bar all were meeting spots to socialize and they have declined or morphed over the years, losing their original social role.
This might be regional too. 3rd places in some cities are promoted as a social norm compared to others. More of a ‘night life’ where as some cities is like you have nothing much to do but go out in nature. I think those areas are a heavier struggle than others when it comes to socializing
There are still some out there, but so many businesses prioritize turnover to raise profits that it can be difficult to have a place to just hang out with friends.
I was thinking the other day there’s probably a pretty straight line between Match group owning so many dating apps, men’s unhappiness, and violence.
Like the apps create the illusion that you can meet someone and be happy, but their primary goal is to make money. They don’t try very hard to introduce you to good matches. They also haven’t solved the experience from the woman’s point of view. So men feel like they’re just shouting into the void, that people don’t like them, etc etc. Some of those people likely go on to become incels or do violence.
This isn’t to say that violent men are not culpable. They are. They retain agency. But Match group (that’s tinder, okcupid, hinge, match, plenty of fish, and more) is making the problem worse.
It’s like if there was a food shortage, and someone bought up all the grocery stores. Then they made all of them mazes and had half the cereal boxes empty.
Interesting how you brought incels up here and how you think they are created from the apps.
There’s a huge portion of users that reach for such an app that may think ‘intimate relationships =happiness’ that require therapy to address why they are unhappy (and how they do relationships) before they should try a relationship (regardless of app).
While I don’t believe the apps are necessarily what is causing this problem (any user decides on their own whether they are ready to date regardless of mental and emotional capability prior to joining) It certainly doesn’t help the situation but makes the compound result much faster. EG: I’ve seen the ‘ghosting’ definition change a lot once dating apps came into play. It used to be when you have a legitimate relationship developed and one person nopes out of it without warning. It had a legitimate victim that’s left out of the cold when another person essentially wasted their time and had a very hefty amount of inconsideration. Now it’s used in a situation if a dude gave someone the jeeb vibes on first meet and got immediately blocked after the one date or even before it makes it to that point and then calls it ghosting. And before we go the route of “well how would he know if no one tells him his behaviour is weird” : dating isn’t a survey. victims of the creepy behaviour aren’t therapists and it’s not their job. They are just on there to date too. They just want to feel safe. Their job at most is themselves. It’s not to curate someone else to become dateable. Lots of unsafe topics about the dating apps on documentaries around so people aren’t going to take it on themselves to provide feedback such as “what you said was inappropriate” without that going sideways with aggression and feeling even more unsafe.
If this is actually feeling like it’s happening a lot, I’d say: close the dating app, find a therapist, talk about why you’re feeling lonely as the problem might be more local than it what is going on the dating app. Cuz the one person whose job it is to give feedback on how you’re doing especially in situations of a relationship with others is a therapist.
It’s like you say: the apps are there to make money. They aren’t there with legitimate concern for their users whether or not they are ready for going into the dating pool. But that said: it really isn’t on the dating apps to do all that either, that is a question the user should be taking on themselves before joining the app and expecting all the results. Sometimes it is on the user.
I don’t disagree with anything here, really. As we both said, some responsibility remains on the user.
I do think Match is aggravating the situation. Men aren’t getting traction so they search for why. They find right wing MRA stuff saying that it’s women’s fault blah blah blah, but really part of why they’re not getting hits is because Match is hiding them unless you pay (and even then maybe).
Part of why may also be they’re creeps or bad at dating. It is not wholly the apps’ fault. But I do think they’re making it harder for people to connect, and that can be the top of the funnel for far right ideas.
And I do think a lot of people are on the apps when they aren’t really ready. People of all genders. But that’s a separate topic, probably.
Anyway. Good talk. Amusingly , I’m heading out to meet someone from a dating app. Here’s hoping they don’t think I’m a creep!
There’s nothing inherently creepy of asking a woman on a date. Just ask them “would you like to go on a date sometime?”
Its creepy if she says no and you keep asking or otherwise act creepy about it.
While I agree about third places, I think it’s interesting that you then focused on dating.
Loneliness means lack of friendships and family ties as well. I think a lot of men are focused on dating, and even when they are in a relationship, they use that as their only source of socialization outside the workplace. A lot of the barriers that exist for one are true for the rest as well, it is hard to make friends nowadays as an adult! There are so many people that stop trying, and it isn’t surprising.
I sort of misinterpreted the Question OP asked.
A lot of people did, and I think that’s really interesting! There’s a lot of focus, even commercialization, around dating for men. So much is geared towards how to get a (romantic) relationship, and I think a lot of people’s self worth is tied to it. And chances are, if you’re feeling that, someone else you know is feeling it too!
I encourage everyone here to reach out to a friend today and see how they’re doing. I’m not going to pretend that’s going to solve the loneliness issue. That’s clearly systemic. But reaching out is something most of us can do.
There are more relationships you can have than a girlfriend
Sex researchers Baumeister and Tice wrote about sexual economics.
“A heterosexual community can be analyzed as a marketplace in which men seek to acquire sex from women by offering other resources in exchange.”
From an evolutionary standpoint it makes sense that women wouldn’t want a partner that can’t provide security for the couple when the woman would be vulnerable if pregnant/nursing.
Young men in particular have fewer resources of value to offer than at any time in most people’s lives. To that point, it’s not like young women are dating any better, so even if they are willing to be the sole provider, most are unable to do so.
With the traditional partnership which historically provided companionship out of the question, men are left yearning for female companionship.
Another point the researchers make, is that men will always yearn, while women have a generally easier time abstaining until conditions are right.
What’s the deal with poorly explained questions?
Why don’t they provide more context for their perspective? Do they think people will magically know what they mean without them explaining it?
I think that’s part of the fun of an “ask people” forum, the answers reveal the common understanding of the definition of the question itself!
For example, In this question the term “male loneliness” is seemingly semantically meaningful. It seems to be a name given to the popular perception or understanding of a certain phenomenon.
Part of the fun of a forum is interacting with people as well, which OP didn’t do. Just shit in the forum and fucked off.
I do think the loneliness epidemic affects men more than women, and would argue it’s sexism harming men. On average, women are more likely to reach out, talk to people and family will check in on them if they are alone. Like, my husband (who is more outgoing than me and better at keeping up with friends) will call his mom or go up to see her, but leaves his dad alone unless he literally asks for something. Because men are taught it’s shameful to not be self sufficient, but women are taught to look for help if we need it.
Obviously this is not a straight gender split but on average it still plays out that way.
Patriarchy hurts everyone
Here’s a theory. I’m sure it has lots of holes in it.
Male loneliness has always been a thing. In cultures where it isn’t/wasn’t, there was a strong family relationship and older men modelling how to relate to others.
To hide from loneliness, men were able to join clubs, hang out at pubs, volunteer, or bury themselves in work.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
What’s changed is that it is now socially OK to talk about loneliness (at least in online forums like this), so more people are aware it’s an issue.
In fact, those same pastimes are still available today.
That is glossing over a lot of context, a big one being that club membership is down (that’s a big point of Bowling Alone). I would not be surprised if many clubs relocated or shut down due to low membership, especially after raising membership fees. Or y’know that they were already a middleclass thing, thus canaries.
Pubs are also going to rely on prices, but the most social ones likely are accessible by free public transit or are located in a walkable/mixed-use area (particularly cities designed before+not-bulldozed-for cars).
I don’t think this is about awareness, especially when most people have less friends and less (or no) social engagement.
I think you may have missed the point I was making though— clubs and other pastimes didn’t make people less lonely; they only distracted people from their loneliness. Today the same distractions can be found via social media, so instead of all those other activities, people just need a phone.
But the anonymizing nature of social media means people feel more free to discuss their loneliness when they do self-reflect.
The entire country is designed to physically isolate people into shiti suburban houses.
Only solution is to quit being poor and live in specific major cities that didn’t get ruined by shiti car lobbies 🤡
I think you have something here. I grew up in the country where people had to actively seek out activities and relationships, including with people they may not otherwise choose to be around. In the city/burbs, I actively chose to travel by foot/transit/someone else’s vehicle, even though it would have been easier to drive everywhere (I mean, sidewalks that just… vanish halfway to a destination? No transit east-west on major arteries? City planners obviously are prioritizing vehicle traffic).
But as a result, I’ve never felt isolated AND have the skills to connect with others who aren’t like me. It’s those skills that seem to have been going away as people hide themselves in their social media bubbles and behind their steering wheels. The same opportunities for socialization are still there, but they take more effort than people are used to making because there’s easier alternatives available than there used to be.
One thing that helps loneliness is communities, especially those that meet IRL. I believe there has been a significant decline in club membership and social groups in the past decades. I think there are several factors behind this, including financial stress (and the resulting scarcity of free time).
One action that people can take is to join communities and participate in them! Even just online groups with similar interests if not IRL groups can help to make friends and feel connected. HTH
