Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
What i really want to see is how the rise of ai companions will affect all this. Nomi, replika, and the others are already doing good, and i forsee that it will keep growing as the technology improves, for better or for worse
They are not doing good. People are becoming dependent on chatbots produced by for-profit companies to get their fix of human socialisation. That’s absolutely awful, very unfortunate, and most assuredly unhealthy.
What i meant by good was financially, not as “good for society”. Maybe i should have made that clear
Oh, I see. Yeah, they’ve definitely taken advantage of the situation.
This is one thing i have wanted to point out. But it good to see how sensitive the whole issue is. That -10 downvote on the original comment tells me people are really sensitive to the whole phenomenon
I think you meant “doing well” 🙃
DUI laws.
What?
Lol. Bad joke. What I was getting at is people used to hang out at bars and drink more (alcohol use was worse). More generally, it’s a lack of third places and car-based city design. More, and more engaging in-home entertainment/Internet also probably plays a part. Though, it’s probably not a completely new phenomenon either, judging from art like Taxi Driver, Catcher In The Rye, etc. So, toxic or even plain masculinity likely makes it harder to make and keep close friends.
I’d bet female loneliness is also rising in modern society as well, due to modern phenomenon. Humans didn’t evolve to live like we are. We used to mostly live in small, close-knit tribes.
I’m fallowing now.🥴
What
I’m not sure how useful the term “male loneliness” is. There’s a crisis of loneliness in every sex and gender, it’s a side effect of capitalism.
EDIT: spelling error.
Commodification of human interaction, enshitification of social spaces, environmental degradation. Stagnant wage growth vs record profits and increasing cost of living. Yeah that’s the profit motive at work. The unwillingness of most to see it, that’s the propaganda in service of the profit motive.
Ahhh yes the default answer to the cause of all struggles of life: Capitalism
Because it, at the very least, contributes to them.
You’re absolutely delusional if you think the system around which we structure our lives doesn’t affect us.
It may contribute a little, but last time i checked, poor social skills and anxiety weren’t caused by capitalism
Why are you saying this in jest? Late-stage capitalism is a civilization ending event, like an aggressive cancer upon our collective reality. It will consume everything we have to give it and demand more in the pursuit of infinite growth.
Capitalism is responsible for loneliness now??
No, loneliness is a side effect of being human. You think there aren’t lonely people living under socialism? Under communism? Or any other types of governments and socioeconomic systems?
For fuck’s sake. When people blame everything on capitalism, it dilutes the water of any real argument you may eventually have.
You have to admit the “leftist” ideologies tend to be about working together and supporting each other, and the “right wing” ideologies about encouraging individual accomplishments, though?
Capitalism absolutely contributes to the loneliness crisis. Firstly, it creates a culture of individualism, making it all about “every person for themselves” rather than fostering a sense of community or collective well-being. Stable, long-term jobs that used to provide social connections are being replaced by gig work and precarious employment, leaving people isolated and too burned out to build meaningful relationships outside work.
On top of that, capitalism pushes this idea that happiness comes from products instead of building connections. Social experiences are even commodified now—like dating apps and paid meetups—so relationships feel more like transactions. Cities, designed for profit, don’t help either. You’ve got people crammed into apartments, commuting for hours, all in their individual cars or with their headphones on, and barely interacting with their neighbours. Public spaces that encourage connection are underfunded or replaced with malls and shopping centres.
And then there’s the way capitalism shapes cultural perception of mental health. Capitalism treats loneliness and isolation as individual problems, with solutions like therapy apps and self-help books (ie. profitable industries) rather than addressing the systemic issues that cause them. Even social media, which could foster connection, is driven by algorithms that push engagement over genuine interaction, leaving people feeling more disconnected after hours of scrolling.
At the end of the day, capitalism is profit over people. It’s no surprise that in a world focused on production, consumption, and competition, we’re all feeling so alone. The link between capitalism and alienation is well studied in social science.
Our western culture of individualism is older than capitalism. Much older. It stems from our agricultural and pastoral modes of production. Grains like wheat as well as livestock like sheep, goats, and cattle are highly amenable to work by an individual farmer or shepherd or rancher. Wheat is sown in ploughed fields that have been worked by oxen or horses.
Compare with a different grain like rice which must be transplanted into flooded fields by large groups of people or crops like potatoes or yams which must be planted and dug up individually by mass labour.
The structure of individualism or collectivism is in the roots of our cultures going back thousands of years. So rather than capitalism giving rise to individualism I think the opposite is the case.
Except for the fact that loneliness has existed long before capitalism and will continue to do so after its disbandment 🤦
Capitalism exacerbates a lot of problems. You should try learning how and why rather than just going “nah those problems existed before” (Completely ignoring that they are far worse now than they were before, so fucking obviously something changed)
Lmao of course you’d say they were worse before😂 even though feudalism was probably the most oppressive system we had as a society. Loneliness rates would’ve been through the roof. Sounds like you’re the one who needs to learn a little bit more
I don’t know how to reapond other than to say that just like, isn’t correct
Ok. Enjoy your capitalism-hate circlejerk then👍
You can only think that way if you stop at the most superifical point of discussion and perception.
One way capitalism increases loneliness is with the job economy. We work too much, to blindly increase “profits” for someone who doesn’t care about us. We are restless and tired when we get home, going out costs too much (because of the same corporations pushing the economy and legislation that makes life always the more expensive) so we don’t go out the same.
Obviously capitalism is but one of the factors of modern loneliness, but it is heavily intertwined with a political will of weakening our resolve and hope and companionship.
When things go a certain way, you need only follow who benefits the most from it, and you will almost surely find the cause for that ill
Rofl! Yeah… I’m done.
Used too much brain for a day?
Not at all! I am just able to recognize a futile argument against ignorance before it happens. And as a rule, I don’t exercise futility. It’s a thing that comes with age.
I explained my point, you ignored it as an “excersize in futility”, you’re just lazy and don’t want to actually read beyond the first lines
You’re absolutely right that I ignored it. Because it’s an absurd take and therefore I dismissed it.
I’ve said it already- but I guess it did’t sink in:
Loneliness is a part of being human and exists within ALL cultures, races, governments, wealth brackets, employment statuses, genders, and ages.
End of story.
Without a single coherent thought expressed!
And ad hominem is?
Traditional masculinity dictates that men don’t share their feelings (with the exception of anger and aggression because that’s not a feeling that’s just being manly). Sadness, despair, loneliness, depression all will be commonly bottled up and left untreated which leads to deep-seated feelings of isolation. The cure has to be a change in social norms, including decoupling the ideas of being socially vulnerable with being feminine.
This is a gross generalization of the issue but it definitely describes my experience with it.
I think you hit the nail on the head. To offer an anecdote, a locally beloved small business owner was recently diagnosed with cancer and was hospitalized. I asked one of his male employees if they’re passing around a hat to help cover his bills, or at least signing a card. The guy laughed and said “That’s a question for one of the girls. Men don’t do that kind of shit.”
It made me so sad. This guy was fighting for his life, and one of the men he’s closest with acted like he didn’t give a shit.
I am a bit confused why would an employee collect money from other employees for their “owner”
This is a bad example since your employer is your enemy. No adult man should ever be caught giving away hard earned money like that.
I don’t even think it’s an exclusively male thing. It’s just getting harder and harder to meet people and mingle. Men are just feeling it harder and sooner.
It’s harder to meet people now. I think part of it is:
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That people used to be bored. You would make entertainment where you could find it, and two bored people can rapidly get entertained. Now you have a phone that makes you not bored, and de-incentivizes face to face interaction.
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There used to be more places where people interacted. Masons, elk lodge, unions, they would often serve alcohol at events, for dirt cheap. They were known as third places, somewhere other than work and home. One thing I hear from a lot of smokers is that the smoking areas are where people hang out to talk, and they do. It’s where conversations happen at a club. It gives you something to do when you’re not talking, a reason to stand somewhere close to people, and a perfect excuse to jump into a conversation. It’s kinda infuriating that it also shaves two minutes off your life -_-.
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People have less time. Younger generations are working multiple jobs, gigs with unpredictable hours, often times having commutes of an hour which turns a 9 to 5 into an 8 to 6, and spending all their vacation hours on the shit that has to be done on a weekday like the DMV or the like. How are you supposed to make a friend when schedules differ so much that a spreadsheet is required to make it work?
IDK; my partner has met ppl that have become very close friends at their workplace. I’ve become more and more isolated as I’ve worked as an adult, to the point where I have zero close friends.
I hope to fix that this year though; I’ll be trying to get my handgun and rifle instructor cert so I can work with the Pink Pistols and Operation Blazing Sword, and connect with my local SRA chapter. E.g., try to do something good in my community, and also meet people.
Male culture also tends to avoid building real relationships and hiding their feelings, and depending on how they look people are scared to be around them. Effort needs to be taken for most men to unlearn toxic traits of the past, which it seems like younger kids today are getting better at avoiding, but there’s definitely a handicap for most men here.
What happens to a man when he shares his feelings? Has that ever gone well for any male since the evolution of meiosis?
Ask the exs I cried in front of who then lost their physical attraction to me. Never doing that again. Having sex semi-regularly is a hell of a lot better than having a shoulder to cry on.
Gets avoided, gets called gay, gets told to man up, gets made fun of
That’s kinda sad but true. Fun fact though, you get to choose your friends. If any of mine reacted like that I’d stop hanging out with them. It’s imperative you have a solid social circle who is gonna help and raise you up. If the toxic masculinity bros wanna hate on being human and having feelings they can fuck off and they’re not invited to my party. Only cool people are allowed.
This, too, is how I roll.
Yeah, I stopped hanging around my toxic friends too. This was a big part of why I was lonely throughout my 20s.
This is part of man culture that we men need to change one step at a time. Instead we bully each other over it.
No we don’t. That’s a feminist lie. The women whose political power depends on maintaining a perpetual state of victimhood by blaming every single thing on men would have you believe that.
Men will have conversations like this:
“Tiffany left me.”
…
“Really?”
…
swig of beer
…
“Yeah. Said I’m not ‘available enough.’”
…
swig of beer
…
“Shit dude.”
…
“Yeah.”
Enough information is shared for one man to put himself in the other’s shoes, think about what he went through, and arrive at the same place for himself. That need women have to put their feelings into words to yap at each other is just a symptom of their abject inability to empathize with their fellow sentient beings.
You know what doesn’t occur to men to share with other men? “Breaking news, this just in from our correspondants in the field: Nothing continues to happen.” In fact I’m going to go post that to the Dull Men’s Club community and see what comments that attracts.
No, the people who will destroy you for being anything other than fine are the women in your life. Your mother, your sisters, your daughters, whatever name your sexual partner(s) insist on being called. They’re the ones who will kick you the hardest when you’re down. You will never be more alone than when you’re surrounded by women.
As someone who had very different experiences with women and prefers opening up to them over men, I can assure you that there is a healthier way of living out there and I hope you can let go of your bitterness some day.
Just reading that makes it sound like you hate women. I’m sure you don’t…but if you’re giving off that kind of feeling / vibe whatever you want to call it, then maybe that’s why you feel alone when you’re surrounded by women. People can pick up on cues like that and avoid people like that.
Also,
menpeople need to talk more than in your example. This is the exact kind of behavior and thinking that contributes to male loneliness.Enough information is shared for one man to put himself in the other’s shoes, think about what he went through, and arrive at the same place for himself.
You just created an example where you imply it’s not okay for men to need more than this. That’s not healthy for you or anyone dude.
Women have worked pretty hard to earn my apathy, so why should I deny them the prize they so vehemently seek? They’re not on my side, as an intentional consequence I am not on theirs.
Seems like the common denominator is you. I hope you can work through that.
Your name definitely checks out bro…
You’ve never heard men say “dude, just suck it up and get over it already. Don’t be a wuss.” about similar issues to other men?
I am reminded of a book called Good To Go by Harry Constance, a US Navy SEAL who served in Vietnam. The exact line of the book it reminds me of is “No swimming.”
I’ve once heard it said that men insult their friends but don’t really mean it, women compliment their friends but they don’t mean it either. I’ll take “Come on, walk it off you’re alright” over faked sympathy every day for 37 more years.
Seems like everyone in your life treats you terribly. Is it possible that the problem might lie with the common factor here? Consider finding a therapist to help you through these thoughts.
About relationship stuff I can honestly say that I haven’t ever seen that. Other than like “hey I know you’re hurting but why don’t you come out with us and we’ll try to help you get back on the horse”. Which I think is pretty positive.
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Get out where? If you have no friends where do you go? Some bar where you stand around awkwardly by yourself while everyone else came with friends?
sdfhjlaks;fjlk;asfjkl;sfjakl;
Okay I’ll just get over crippling social anxiety. Great advice. Thanks.
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Yes, if this is an issue you have: you should start taking steps to address it!
There are a number of online services to get you started, or see a therapist for personalized help from a professional. Mental health issues are real, but can be addressed with the right treatments. They won’t likely go away on their own, you’ll need to find the right strategies that work for you and then put in the effort & time to address it.
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Women are not putting themselves out anymore
I am not sure what this means. Women will always make themselves available to a guy they like, they all just like the same few guys while the rest of male population gives them the ick.
Women don’t owe you sex, learn and grow as a person
When you have a significant change in the population dynamic, it takes a significant time for the population not (really) effecting this change to adjust.
From my perspective as an old bloke, Women now treat relationships as transactional or have standards that are impossible (for that individual) to achieve; men are reacting in the only way available. There are obviously a number of reasons for the changing in dynamic and I’m not making that statement to judge or analyse; mass change requires motivation. The motivation presented itself.
To my mind society is in the same incredible flux as when the female pill became a real and accessible/allowable thing fifty years ago. Gillick competence case law didn’t happen in the UK until 1985; that’s awfully late to protect young women.
The risks to a man of a long-term relationship significantly outweigh the potential rewards. Being aware of the overwhelming risks and deciding not to engage doesn’t stop one being lonely.
“I used to think the worst thing in life was to end up all alone. It’s not. The worst thing in life is to end up with people who make you feel alone.” - Robin Williams
Could you please elaborate on what you mean by risk and why is it worse for men?
The juice ain’t worth the squeeze.
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https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/risk I’m assuming you’re not familiar with the word and English is not your first language.
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- 80 - 90% of women win custody battles, despite prisons being almost entirely of fatherless homes. Homes where the father is the single parent have the same recidivism rate as two parent homes. 100k children each year lose contact with a parent as a result of divorce - guess which parent usually. Legal Shared parenting has almost completely disappeared.
- False accusations of violence are free or fully funded for women. In the England/Wales when legal aid introduced the requirement of domestic violence before legal aid was granted, on the quarter of this rule coming in (2011) applications under domestic abuse as documented by CAFCASS were multiplied by 10 times. Either men collectively decided to start beating their wives in that quarter or fully funded false accusations were exposed as an issue.
- About 20-30% of children are not related to their father as named on their birth certificate. Statistics from the child maintenance body in the UK shows that for the thousands of men placed on child maintenance applications over a third were shown to be false applications citing unrelated men. In France, it is illegal it seek the DNA child - father match for your own children. Visit a genealogy community or ancestry on Reddit or Facebook.
- In the UK the 1971 law (MCA) says effectively that joint marital assets follow the children. The woman typically gets around 80%+ of net assets because they have custody of the children. that’s a personal observation because these are private law cases. The government refuses to publish the real numbers.
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(I’m tired of typing now) Domestic violence against men is ignored; or the victim is arrested. There are no shelters for men and children in the whole of the UK. Erin pissey, a lovely woman, who came up with the idea for shelters for DV survivors for both sexes was removed from the organisation she started by feminists and now campaigns for DV shelters for men. All of these government money for supporting male victims of DV is given to 'Women’s Aid" after their successful bid years ago. There is still no support for male victims; it doesn’t take a genius to imagine why.
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(Others are going to have to help finish these.) Sixty five years after the female pill, there is no male equivalent. Women can opt out of being a mother with abortion, men don’t have the right to opt out of their equivalent. I don’t know a guy who hasn’t been told “you can take the condom off, I’m on the pill” - if he refuses a row ensues. I do know of the sale of positive pregnancy tests, condom mining for semen which is then used to become pregnant and the “on the pill” being a complete lie.
Thanks for typing these out! I asked more because I wanted to know where exactly you were coming from, not strictly because I didn’t have the language skills. Then again, i think it is very much worth it to have the information on these shared more widely
My apologies. I was confused why you asked me about the word risk. My bad assumption.
Netflix subscribers might watch: https://www.netflix.com/gb/title/81927969
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if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
basically, a piece of toxic masculinity….
men are only allowed to display emotions of anger or mild happiness.
i think this is a big reason why sports are so popular… it’s more about camaraderie than anything else.
also why they like to get drunk and say “i love you man” and all that mushy stuff.in a nutshell: because they’re taught to be that way.
if men display feelings, they’re seen as bitches by men, and weak by women (exceptions exist, but generally speaking).
I don’t care if “alpaha” males think I am a soyboy, but you ain’t keeping a partner if she got the “ick”
And most women get the ick over random shit including something that they might perceive as unregulated emotions.
i agree… i just don’t think that’s an inherent thing in women and it’s a symptom of a sick society…
Good point, it could very well be. Sadly, it’s really hard to tell why, and which women will respond with it. I’ve never heard a woman alluding to it irl, but I have seen them respond in both ways.
The ick is huge. The only woman most men can open up to without playing russian roulette is their mother (assuming a healthy relationship).
Ignore all that and be yourself, if you’re around people that treat you that poorly you should find yourself new friends
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I used to struggle with this game of trying to be perceived the way I am “supposed to”. It’s when I gave up on that game that likeminded people just kinda noticed in everyday interactions.
I’ve made a lot of friends since then, and I’ve got a lot less to worry about
Faulty and even dangerous use of the phrase “supposed to.” It implies a pressure to conform to some standard of etiquette or game rule. “You’re supposed to keep your elbows off the table.” “You’re supposed to wait for the umpire to say ‘play ball’ before you pitch.”
If I were teaching a shop class, and I were to hear one of my students say “you’re supposed to use a push stick when doing thin rips on a table saw,” I would say corrective action is necessary. While yes, using a push stick while performing thin rips is good practice, use of the phrase “supposed to” implies an attitude that it is the shop teacher’s pet peeve, and that the student will be free of that pointless ritual once out on the job.
You use a push stick because a table saw is a device designed to tear the bodies of living things apart, and rapidly. If you touch the blade, your body will be torn apart, and rapidly. While performing a thin rip with your bare hands, your hands will pass very close to the blade, anything goes wrong, a kickback or similar calamity will hurt you in ways a doctor can’t fix. Push sticks are PPE, we use them so we don’t get injured, not because “it’s the rules.”
“supposed to” as in how some people and social groups except and push particular behaviours from certain individuals. As in women are “supposed to” be in the kitchen.
it’s to present the stupid way some social groups and cultures work
Yeah we don’t do that anymore. We don’t “supposed to.”
Some people have learned better, and not all cultures are as bad with this. But unfortunately, the majority of people is still stuck with the social pressure to be or behave in certain ways that are simply not benefitting anyone
Too many cars. No more third place.
I would posit that the internet and abundant screen entertainment contributed to killing third places far more than cars. The US has had a car culture for a very long time. (I’m not saying that makes it a good thing.)
Maybe. But if people had the sqme amoubt of screen time and wqlked or biked, or took public transit there would be more forced interaction than there is in car culture.
I think they go hand in hand. And right now we got both.
Oh, too many cars! Absolutely, makes sense…
How much time do you willingly spend in public interacting with others?
There was a lot more of it happening before society required everyone to have personal transportation.
I’m an introvert so I am at home, work, or errands. I probably would talk to a lot more strangers if I had to use public transport and it wasn’t so expensive to do anything fun in public.
You would?
I use public transit daily and hardly ever interact with anyone. Maybe there is one interaction every 100 days? I don’t frequently see two strangers interacting either, it’s unheard of except maybe for retirees with effectively infinite time.
Well, people will ask you for directions sometimes so that’s something…
The best you get in a car is road rage
A challenge for you (or anyone interested in taking it up): Once a day, while waiting for public transit, pay attention to the people around you. Does anyone have something interesting about them (hair, clothes, jewelery, weird keychain thing on their phone, etc.)? Ask one identified person about it. See someone who looks like they are on the verge of tears? Ask them “Hey, is everything ok?”
9/10 times you’ll have a brief Q-A-back off interaction, but sometimes it’ll turn into a longer conversation. Yes, it feels awkward. Yes, in some places you’ll come across as rude/uncomfortably weird (keep your dominant culture in mind - you probably wouldn’t try this in some place like Finland or something). But I’ve had some very interesting experiences doing this in the past (usually with the ones who look upset - if you’re willing to be a sympathetic ear you might just make that person’s day).
I can imagine little worse than doing what you just described although that is (in part) due to moderate social anxiety. I behave in the exact opposite way - ignoring people regardless of how much they stand out because I don’t want to stare.
Though I can imagine what you’ve been doing has helped others.
Others have explained it (places where social interaction is the primary intent - not home and not work) but I’ll add - old European cities (and most smaller towns) have some sort of public square. Many have lasted to this day and are still used. We can still build them, we but our chosen form of urbanization isn’t that conducive to it so we don’t. In North America in the 80 and into the 90s, malls we’re 3rd place. Then they started aggressively going after loitering in malls since simply sitting in a mall doesn’t produce economic activity. Many malls died and many are still dying. Those that survived achieved the - nobody goes there to chill anymore. Just to buy what they need, maybe eat, and then leave. Nobody plans to “meet at the mall” anymore.
Bar culture is still very much alive but I think people are less inclined to go to those places alone now.
10 dollar drinks and DUIs will do that
Funny you should phrase it like that.
My uncle is a machinist specializing in automotive engine repair and modification. Over dinner last month, he mentioned that he’s used to seeing middle age customers for hot rod engine builds, midlife crisis “Always wanted to do this” kind of guys, but lately he’s been seeing men in their teens and twenties come in wanting heads ported and polished and shit like that.
They’re not spending money on women because women have made themselves impossible to want, so young men are turning their attention to things like cars.
So you’re saying they want their heads polished by a man because women are unattainable? Interesting…
Hmmm
women have made themselves impossible to want
No sure what this mean… There is never lack of demand for pussy. It is always supply constrained ever since people figure how to trade
With that being said, yound adult men generally no market value since they have no status which is a key in getting with women. Status is linked to class but that’s just a part of it.
This is basically it. It costs money to hang out with people IRL, everytime, all because of cars. We are all spread out so far now, except in a handful of places. Even without factoring in cars, the amount of activities that people can do for free or cheap is dwindled to basically nothing. This is simplistic, but the reality is no one can really afford real friends anymore.
What’s “third place”?
In sociology, the third place refers to the social surroundings that are separate from the two usual social environments of home and the workplace. Examples of third places include churches, cafes, bars, clubs, libraries, gyms, bookstores, hackerspaces, stoops, parks, theaters, among others
The colloquial “third place” is, as I understand it, a (usually) public place OUTSIDE of Home or Work where people can meet, hangout, play, or just exist without the expectation of spending money or being productive in some way. Examples would be Parks, Libraries, old-timey Public Houses and Cafes, Playgrounds, Forests and Wilderness within walking distance, and more.
Car culture killed a lot of that by removing the ability to reasonably walk places outside major metro areas, as businesses relocated to cities, and because they straight up increased the fatality rate for walking substantially. Internet Culture also killed it since you can just talk to your buddies through the Demon Rectangle instead of meeting IRL.
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Places that aren’t home or work. Social places, like bars.
Yes because only males can be lonely.
Gender division and masculinity is trained into us from the second our genitals are identified be it sonogram or at birth. From the colors, toys, media, to early childhood social pressures were pushed into one of two molds. If a boy interacts with a girl it’s labelled as boyfriend girlfriend even if there’s no romantic intent (because why would children have that?). But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
When you’re emotionally isolated from yourself, and surrounded by others who are also emotionally isolated, you’re not motivated to be around them since they won’t fulfill your needs. Then, you realize you’re also not comfortable enough to bridge the divide to people who are in touch with their own emotions. So all this hard work and you’re only a few steps down the path to connection. Usually with little sense of where to go from there.
When you finally get to the point of diving in and expressing emotionally outward, it’s easy to get wrapped with anxiety. You expect others to push you away, not because they will, most people respond well, but because you’re even less oriented and more vulnerable than ever. Though i would argue less fragile.
Lots of other posts discussing things like whether other people in the age group are socially available, and lack of third spaces.
But the point is that masculinity [and femininity] is programmed throughout the core development of the brain. Unless there’s a motivation to question it that developed neuron architecture only gets reinforced. By the time you’re able to question it you’re so set in the concrete it takes years or decades of struggle to unlearn the worst traits. When you unlearn them it’s a threat to people who haven’t had to question it.
Except for children with autism, I’d say. My mom couldn’t get me to be girly or feminine while I was growing up, I just did what made sense, sometimes that was a girly or feminine thing and other times not.
Maybe the patriarchy is an allistic people problem lol.
If people are lonely it’s because they cause it themselves.
I’m in an activity group and it’s mostly the women of the group who are organizing the events. The men sign up to attend. The women are the ones who make plans and the men just go along.
Why don’t the men take initiative?
Even playing a board game, the guys just sit there playing a game. The women are the ones who introduce themselves, ask other people their names, what they do for a living, engage in conversation. This is all stuff men could be doing themselves but choose not to.
Some men isolate themselves using video games and didn’t join any social groups then complain that they are lonely. It’s like complaining you’re hungry when the food is right in front of you but you just won’t eat it – you’re expecting someone else to literally feed you.
-plenty of men out there do planning
-going along with someone is not a lack of socializing it can be their way of supporting.
-In fact it’s probably better that a dude doesn’t take over on a woman doing it because that has been taught to be all sorts of sexist now. I know if it were me in the middle of organizing and some dude took over I’d be all sorts of pissed off.
-There is social aspect in video games too. In fact there is a large amount of social presence online. You also have wallflowers online but just saying, if someone is looking at their screen it doesn’t necessarily mean they are incapable of social ability. there’s actually a skill in online presence.
A lot of men were never taught to do this. We raise young girls to be incredibly social, but boys are not socialized to nearly the same extent. You can see this in Autism diagnoses. Girls are diagnosed as a much lower rate and the ones that do receive the diagnosis tend to be really severe cases. The leading theory as to why is that society places so many social expectations on girls that the more mild cases quickly learn to mask and pass themselves off as neurotypical.
Hell, I’m 35 and I just started a group chat with some of my bros in order to help with motivation to get things done (it’s basically a stand up meeting but for our personal lives/goals). NONE of them even know each other, they were just doing this to help me out because I’m burned out. 2 weeks in and they had all thanked me privately for giving them a social outlet and improving their mood. None of us usually text people unless we need to, and now we’ll routinely get roped into conversations because someone shares an interesting update.
Meanwhile my wife is juggling 3 different group chats in addition to half a dozen friends she keeps in touch with 1-1.
There might be some biological mechanism too, but I think a lot of it boils down to boys have “productive labor” modelled for them as ideal behavior while girls are taught how to be considerate friends.
This makes it seem like men can’t learn. There’s nothing biological about organizing an event or talking to people.
We absolutely can, but it’s still a lot harder to pick these skills up as adults vs internalizing them as a kid, and a lot of men don’t even realize the cause of their suffering.
Like, I’m not trying to give men an excuse not to change-- you asked why men are bad at planning and I’m just giving you an answer.
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There are multiple reasons for this. First of all due to the fact that a lot of infrastructure is based around cars society actively looses places for people to meet and hang out(I think this effect even has a name, but I’m not sure). Lack of places to interact with other people, and therefore lack of social interactions, causes a rise in loneliness. Then theres the problem with how men are supposed to act. We get told, that we shouldn’t “ask out” women in every day life, since its now considered creepy. For me this causes a certain type of being not sure where and when it is OK to ask someone out leading to me not doing it since I don’t want to get labeled as a creep. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t want to blame women for the male loneliness epidemic and there devinetively are a lot of men beeig creeps and asking someone out in absolutely the wrong situations, but this is something that needs to be said to understand the male loneliness epidemic. This also causes dating to take place online. Now the problem is, that online dating fucking sucks. Dating apps are useless, as long as you don’t want to sell your kidney to them, since they want you to keep using it. If dating apps were somewhat usefull they’d be out pf buisness quite fast.
There are more relationships you can have than a girlfriend
While I agree about third places, I think it’s interesting that you then focused on dating.
Loneliness means lack of friendships and family ties as well. I think a lot of men are focused on dating, and even when they are in a relationship, they use that as their only source of socialization outside the workplace. A lot of the barriers that exist for one are true for the rest as well, it is hard to make friends nowadays as an adult! There are so many people that stop trying, and it isn’t surprising.
I sort of misinterpreted the Question OP asked.
A lot of people did, and I think that’s really interesting! There’s a lot of focus, even commercialization, around dating for men. So much is geared towards how to get a (romantic) relationship, and I think a lot of people’s self worth is tied to it. And chances are, if you’re feeling that, someone else you know is feeling it too!
I encourage everyone here to reach out to a friend today and see how they’re doing. I’m not going to pretend that’s going to solve the loneliness issue. That’s clearly systemic. But reaching out is something most of us can do.
I was thinking the other day there’s probably a pretty straight line between Match group owning so many dating apps, men’s unhappiness, and violence.
Like the apps create the illusion that you can meet someone and be happy, but their primary goal is to make money. They don’t try very hard to introduce you to good matches. They also haven’t solved the experience from the woman’s point of view. So men feel like they’re just shouting into the void, that people don’t like them, etc etc. Some of those people likely go on to become incels or do violence.
This isn’t to say that violent men are not culpable. They are. They retain agency. But Match group (that’s tinder, okcupid, hinge, match, plenty of fish, and more) is making the problem worse.
It’s like if there was a food shortage, and someone bought up all the grocery stores. Then they made all of them mazes and had half the cereal boxes empty.
Interesting how you brought incels up here and how you think they are created from the apps.
There’s a huge portion of users that reach for such an app that may think ‘intimate relationships =happiness’ that require therapy to address why they are unhappy (and how they do relationships) before they should try a relationship (regardless of app).
While I don’t believe the apps are necessarily what is causing this problem (any user decides on their own whether they are ready to date regardless of mental and emotional capability prior to joining) It certainly doesn’t help the situation but makes the compound result much faster. EG: I’ve seen the ‘ghosting’ definition change a lot once dating apps came into play. It used to be when you have a legitimate relationship developed and one person nopes out of it without warning. It had a legitimate victim that’s left out of the cold when another person essentially wasted their time and had a very hefty amount of inconsideration. Now it’s used in a situation if a dude gave someone the jeeb vibes on first meet and got immediately blocked after the one date or even before it makes it to that point and then calls it ghosting. And before we go the route of “well how would he know if no one tells him his behaviour is weird” : dating isn’t a survey. victims of the creepy behaviour aren’t therapists and it’s not their job. They are just on there to date too. They just want to feel safe. Their job at most is themselves. It’s not to curate someone else to become dateable. Lots of unsafe topics about the dating apps on documentaries around so people aren’t going to take it on themselves to provide feedback such as “what you said was inappropriate” without that going sideways with aggression and feeling even more unsafe.
If this is actually feeling like it’s happening a lot, I’d say: close the dating app, find a therapist, talk about why you’re feeling lonely as the problem might be more local than it what is going on the dating app. Cuz the one person whose job it is to give feedback on how you’re doing especially in situations of a relationship with others is a therapist.
It’s like you say: the apps are there to make money. They aren’t there with legitimate concern for their users whether or not they are ready for going into the dating pool. But that said: it really isn’t on the dating apps to do all that either, that is a question the user should be taking on themselves before joining the app and expecting all the results. Sometimes it is on the user.
I don’t disagree with anything here, really. As we both said, some responsibility remains on the user.
I do think Match is aggravating the situation. Men aren’t getting traction so they search for why. They find right wing MRA stuff saying that it’s women’s fault blah blah blah, but really part of why they’re not getting hits is because Match is hiding them unless you pay (and even then maybe).
Part of why may also be they’re creeps or bad at dating. It is not wholly the apps’ fault. But I do think they’re making it harder for people to connect, and that can be the top of the funnel for far right ideas.
And I do think a lot of people are on the apps when they aren’t really ready. People of all genders. But that’s a separate topic, probably.
Anyway. Good talk. Amusingly , I’m heading out to meet someone from a dating app. Here’s hoping they don’t think I’m a creep!
There’s nothing inherently creepy of asking a woman on a date. Just ask them “would you like to go on a date sometime?”
Its creepy if she says no and you keep asking or otherwise act creepy about it.
Referenced in a lower comment, but that loss of a meet and hangout place is often called a “third place,” as opposed to work or home. The show Cheers is a depiction of a third place in that it’s a place where “everybody knows your name” and the norm is staying and chatting, not spending a few bucks and running out.
There are some interesting suppositions about how this loneliness became more and more endemic with the decline in bowling leagues. People, men in particular, just have fewer regular hangout activities and so get more and more lonely. Things like bowling leagues, lodges, and the corner bar all were meeting spots to socialize and they have declined or morphed over the years, losing their original social role.
This might be regional too. 3rd places in some cities are promoted as a social norm compared to others. More of a ‘night life’ where as some cities is like you have nothing much to do but go out in nature. I think those areas are a heavier struggle than others when it comes to socializing
There are still some out there, but so many businesses prioritize turnover to raise profits that it can be difficult to have a place to just hang out with friends.
Toxic masculinity makes men feel like they need to be strong independent and suffer silently.
As for the other side of the coin, i would guess the Women Are Wonderful Effect.
Male loneliness has probably always been a thing. Lonely men were expected to work difficult jobs, or fight in wars for kings, or just kill themselves.
Some women would have experienced similar issues, along with probably greater rates of sexual abuse, etc.
I think there have always been quite a few people with shit lives throughout history; it’s just that society doesn’t want to acknowledge these people. People who are doing fine in life want to pretend that life is fair, when actually it isn’t.
