Like, why is it so widespread, what causes it, what solutions are available, etc. I don’t really know how to ask this question so I hope I’m making sense
For decades it has been ingrained in men that they are to be held to a very specific standard. Men don’t cry, men are strong, men have to take care of everyone else, stop your whining, I’ll give you something to cry about, be the alpha male, that’s “gay”, strength, weakness, and so on.
My father, and grandfather, both grew up with a code of silence. Feelings weren’t talked about, but relayed through their wives; except anger. That was given directly through corporal punishment (hand or belt).
I was always “emotional” growing up. I cried “like a baby” over “nothing”. No one ever came to check on me, or console me, during any of my “fits”. In fact, there were times I was ridiculed for it (sometimes by family members).
When I was 19 my grandmother died. I was really close with her; she was the only one who ever came to my aid and defended me. It tore me up so bad I could barely talk without breaking down. I was told multiple times that I shouldn’t be so upset, and that I was overreacting (by my family). Everything came to a head when all at once my cousins, aunts, uncles, and even brother yelled at me because I was being selfish and unreasonable, and insensitive to my grandfather because “he just lost his wife”.
Oh, and apologies are for “pussies”.
Anyway, it’s not really about me. I wanted to paint a picture for you as to why I’m lonely. Do with that what you will.
I think it’s because people are overworked. No time for love, no time for friendship, sometimes not even enough time to take care of yourself properly.
Culture of excessive individuality and independence plus macho culture
Lack of intergenerational teaching and connections to help kids mature when growing up
Macho culture existed long before the loneliness. It’s a different kind of macho culture now that is detrimental.
Previous generations had less destructive outlets for machismo than boys of today. Being part of a sports team meant that you had an outlet and a group that you shared common goals with.
I think maybe those words are true, but they are so generic they don’t say anything to me.
I think women has changed due to social media, and that’s causing the men loneliness.
Men that have been captured by the “alpha” and “masculinity” culture don’t realize that it makes them fucking radioactive. They are literally the reason why women choose the bear. Boys thinking that they have to be hyperbolic, over-aggressive, possessive, manipulative assholes in order to be a “man” are the exact reason that they are lonely.
These men don’t have a god given right to just “have” a girlfriend.
Huh??? We’ve been uncommunicative, miserable fucks for much longer than the internet has been around.
I’m confused. Are women on social media interfering on man-to-man friendships?
Your first hint that this is a naive take is that you’re brushing off a societal issue to a single, external factor.
No, male culture has changed far more due to propaganda, etc.
Social media changed dating, and made it ok for both women and men to treat eachother as commodities, resources, status symbols.
This bleeds over in real life, where women don’t need/want to have relationships with men anymore (in real life) in the west (outside of their love relationship). They already get all the attention they need from hundreds of men on social media telling them they are beautiful.
A lot of western guys go for girls in Indonesia or Thailand these days, because they are kind and beautiful. Of course the girls see the opportunity to be with a guy from the west who has money. But it seems to work out. Both genders are often happy in those relationships, both get what they value from it.
Social media changed dating, and made it ok for both women and men to treat eachother as commodities, resources, status symbols.
I stopped reading right here. Men and women have ALWAYS treated each other as commodities. Since…always. Hell, you can go back to the early 1900s before women were allowed to vote, and your wife was LITERALLY considered your property. Some cities like Kansas City even allowed you to legally beat your wife, because again, she was your property.
Or you can go back even farther than that. You can go to the 1400s in England, and mothers would willingly hand over their sons to the king. Sons as young as 9 years old. And the reason was so that the king could have casual sex with your children. And this was not only accepted, but encouraged socially back then. Mothers would brag to other people in their social circles that the king chose THEIR son to fuck in the butt at 9 years old. That was like a status symbol for your family to have your kids chosen for the king’s personal sexual purposes.
So yeah, social media had nothing to do with people treating other people like objects. That shits been going on probably longer than the concept of literacy and the written word.
When it comes to dating, most men date for looks, most women date for status/wealth. And then people wonder why so many relationships fall apart. It’s because SO many people are just looking for the blonde girl with the biggest tits, or the doctor with the biggest paycheck.
Well looks can fade, and wealth can disappear. If you marry a girl for her looks in your 20s, you’ll be bitter in your 60s. And if you marry a guy for his bank account, you’ll still be stuck with him if he gets a prenup, or goes bankrupt.
Don’t date someone for what they bring to the table. Date someone for who they are as a person. Because an average looking girl who’s amazing to hang out with will still be amazing to hang out with then they’re old. And a blue collar working man may not be rich, but he’ll still give you the shirt off his back to prevent seeing you be unhappy. Even when you’re old.
All these relationships I see today are just people looking to use other people, until you see the rare ones that you realize “Yeah! They’re going to last together.” Meanwhile Britney Bangs-a-lot is on her 7th marriage.
I would like to blame modern society but since the term “Lone Wolf” exists, I’m guessing it’s older than that.
there’s a big difference between the loner and the lonely
Toxic gender norms hurt everyone.
I think this is exacerbated by certain people online who want to capitalize on the issue and scapegoat others (see the manosphere and how they talk about feminism) instead of actually addressing the problem
Edit: a little plug for https://lemmy.ca/c/mensliberation
Could not agree more feminism is just human rights by another name and human rights is not achieved by anyone till every gender , race , sexual orientation, religion or lack of, ability or disability are equal.
You dont have to agree even. That’s just the definition of feminism.
That word is egalitarianism. Ftfy.
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/english/egalitarianism
Feminism is egalitarianism just as Black Lives Matter is egalitarianism.
Both recognize disparities for a specific marginalized group, and work to establish egalitarianism.
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Because everything that used to give men purpose nolonger exists or is nolonger viable.
Because borning a child yourself is the purpose of life and without it there is no sense in living.
The fuck u tryna say?
Asking the big questions over here. You’ll be rich if you find the answer.
There’s been a concerted effort over the last several decades to push a men vs women dynamic online, and most men don’t buy into it, so it’s really just been people shitting all over men without consequence. Just look at the other answers here focusing exclusively on how men can be blamed (edit: many better replies have been posted since I made this comment).
Quite likely pushed excessively by foreign propaganda.
Male loneliness is likely partially due to the same reason we are all here; this online outlet for social endorphins is why you were not building up a deficit over the last week and felt the motivation to finally call that person you were thinking about this whole time. That person was a passing thought, and the endorphins hit you might have received is ultimately less than you got from the austere but consistent dose you get from social engagement online.
The only problem is that you are not creating a meaningful personal social network in real life. When you really need such a network in practice, you face the reality of no one to turn to, or less depth and meaning to such connections. Real people are also complex and you must face the reality that no one fits your echo chamber bubble like a place like this. If you act like a down vote or stupid hot take comes across here to people in the real world… you find yourself back here with less options in the future.
People online can be fun and can’t hurt you
Ah, I guess I’ll need to tell my teenage friend who never made it to adulthood after feeling trapped and ruined when an older man started an online relationship that isolated her from her family to… fucking grow a pair or something?
Healthy mature people can exist online in a positive manner. Not everyone is an adult and not every adult is mature. The internet can be a dangerous place and it’s unhelpful to try and dismiss that.
Valid. Fair point.
Don’t get disabled and have a place like this as your only outlet to connect with other humans. Anonymous and mob like negativity, especially from misunderstandings, can be hurtful when sharing some part of yourself or the only time you’ve said anything to anyone in a day or more from within a prison of loneliness you cannot escape.
Male loneliness is as much a symptom of the “suck it up” toxic masculinity that pervades your comment as it is the content of your comment.
Men are taught to be stoic, to rely only on themselves, to suck it up and get on with it, and for some, they’re trying desperately to conform to something that seems frighteningly easy for others. They’re expending all their energy on that unnatural - for them - attempt to conform rather than being able to simply exist as they might otherwise be.
Your instinct might be to attack me for pointing this out. That’s toxicity at play. Look at yourself.
But I haven’t made my main point yet. It’s this same toxicity and trying to “be a man” that turns men into the monsters that women fear, and so it becomes a vicious cycle of negativity breeding loneliness and on and on.
My advice would be “Do better. And if you can’t do better, do your best. And whatever you do, minimise harm.”
I choose to abstract and never attack anyone, while you insult, and make assumptions about my disposition going as far as assigning them an ideology and framework that seems repugnant and baseless to me. I see and feel lots of projection and bias, but if causing a disabled person in social isolation harm makes you feel better, I’m glad you had a better day. The comments seem so randomly unrelated it feels like you are possibly a misinformation agent of some sort.
Yeah I agree that response was uncalled-for.
I’m genuinely confused how my advice to minimise harm has itself caused harm. And sometimes, someone’s “best” isn’t much at all. That’d be me most days.
I should probably have put a conditional on “Look at yourself” to tie it in with the “might” in the lead sentence, though, that’s on me.
This is so true. We are living in the novel “Brave New World”
One thing that helps loneliness is communities, especially those that meet IRL. I believe there has been a significant decline in club membership and social groups in the past decades. I think there are several factors behind this, including financial stress (and the resulting scarcity of free time).
One action that people can take is to join communities and participate in them! Even just online groups with similar interests if not IRL groups can help to make friends and feel connected. HTH
There’s a few factors working together to cause it. There’s really two main ones: pressure to have sex and romantic connection, and an inability to be able to make those connections.
There’s tons and tons of pressure out there about being in a relationship and having sex. In modern day, a good example is Andrew Tate and the like, directly linking your self worth to having sex. Back when I was a male teenager during the days of rage comics and advice animals, it was memes about the friend zone. The core idea is the same, being alone is something to be ashamed and upset about. Being rejected is something that reflects badly upon you as a person. Young men are constantly being bombarded with messaging about how being a man revolves around sex and romance, and lacking these things makes you less of a man. In addition, so much media portrays sex both as this amazing thing on a pedestal and as something that’s not just commonplace but as something that everyone’s expected to be doing.
So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.
The other problem is actually making romantic or otherwise meaningful connections. So much more socializing is online these days, and there are a lot fewer women on the internet than men. It’s difficult to make organic connections with single women online, as random social media is by far mostly male and more direct closer friend groups tend to be made of single men and people in relationships (this is very arbitrary and circumstancial, it’s just what I’ve noticed). So, your odds of finding a single and compatible friend of a friend of a friend online aren’t great, and dating apps are complete trash for pretty much anything other than gay hookups. So, there’s not really a way for many young men to find romantic partners. Straight up hookups are easier, especially if your standards aren’t too high, but it’s an area a lot of young men aren’t socially comfortable with because it’s not something they’ve done a lot of, which makes everything much harder.
In the end, if there wasn’t so much pressure to be dating and having sex, then the difficulty of doing so in the modern day wouldn’t matter so much.
Personally, I’ve basically only had sex with men, because it’s so much more straightforward and the dating pool isn’t crazy lopsided. Though that’s at an end now too, because I’ve transitioned too much to be appealing to gay men anymore and haven’t transitioned nearly enough to be appealing to straight men or gay women.
So young men are believing that everyone except them are all in relationships and/or fucking all the time, and believing that them not doing those things makes worth less as a human being.
I just want to add that, in virtually every online discussion I’ve seen about the dynamic between men and women, if a man says something incel-ish, or otherwise not popular, there will be somebody (almost always a woman) who will fire back a retort like, “yeah, but no woman wants to be with you anyway,” (I haven’t seen it on Lemmy, which is wonderful.)
There it is: Your opinion, and by extension your worth as a person, is based on your ability to have sex. Is it any wonder that men think that, after being explicitly informed so?
yeah, but no woman wants to be with you anyway,
They would rather be with a bear in the woods!
I can’t really answer/reply to most of your comment but there is something about the last paragraph that I can respond to:
What about bi-/pansexual men? They exist [1][2] and there will be many that are attracted to people in between gender( expression)s.
[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bisexuality
[2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/PansexualityIf I’ve met any/interacted with any/they’ve run across my profile on dating/hookup apps and they’ve been interested in me, they haven’t expressed it. Certainly not saying people who might be interested in me don’t exist, just that I haven’t come across any who are. Lol I know bi and pan people exist, I’m one of them
You make very good points also to add women in online spaces have incentives to pretend to be male or be ambiguous and not bring attention that they are women online to reduce the harassment they get. I’m pulling numbers out of the air but I feel 10% the internet that is male are assholes or children that don’t have any social skills yet and the other 90% get lumped in with them because we don’t reach out at all as to not come off as creeps like the other 10%. So you don’t hear about the polite respectful ones.
My hypothesis for this comes from the fact that most men I meet in real life are polite social people that respect women with about 10% being weird assholes. I also don’t blame women being guarded of all men as that 10% are true nightmare. I mean if there was a 10% chance a strange man you meet out in public was going to be Jason Voorhees. I would mace every man that came up to me as well. That’s how those assholes ruin it for everyone. Well except the grifrers that make it worse that is.
Also I’m married but we met online before tinder broke dating sites. So take what I say with a grain of salt just from an old man that sees the struggle of young people of all genders go through and I have empathy for them.
Seeing Lemmy’s reaction to the bear made me want to crawl under a rock to be honest, so many people demonstrating that they’re exactly the reason why women don’t feel safe. A lot more than 10% of men on the internet are weird assholes, they just mask it well until they feel insulted. I’ve had a cis woman friend have to change her screen name because she’d occasionally get clocked and harassed, and a trans friend is really split on the progress she’s making with her voice, because now she’s also getting harassed when using voice chat in games.
Sorry mostly unrelated tangent, it just feels like gender relations have been backsliding
I’m out of the loop, what bear situation are you referring to?
it was something like, there was a viral tweet asking if women would rather be alone in the woods with a bear or with a man, and most women said they’d pick the bear, and many many many men were very gross about this in response
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Man_or_bear
Basically women expressing they’d be more comfortable in the woods knowing that there’s a bear roaming around than knowing there’s a random man roaming around
Seeing Lemmy’s reaction to the bear made me want to crawl under a rock to be honest, so many people demonstrating that they’re exactly the reason why women don’t feel safe.
That was definitely hard to witness
Like, I get it, it’s upsetting to be judged a predator based off of your gender alone. That’s something I struggle with being trans, seeing how seemingly half the country thinks trans people are just perverts and child predators. But with the whole bear situation, men need to realize that it’s not a reflection of them as individuals but a reflection of society. Being upset about it is normal and rational, but you should be upset at the society that allows women to be treated in such a way that women have to be suspicious and fearful, instead of being upset at the women making them confront this ugly truth.
Discussing gender relations like this should be done carefully with empathy, telling a bunch of male teens and young men that they’re all predators can be quite damaging in and of itself, both to the men directly and to the greater discussion and understanding of the problems we face as a society. God knows being on reddit as a teenager and hearing that really hurt me and contributed to mental issues I haven’t and probably will never fully resolve.
See Bowling Alone.
Personally (and from a US shut-in perspective!) I’d take it further: the social contract is broken. When society has been molded to almost exclusively generate money, the closest to winning there is when you’re broke is trying to spend the least amount of money possible which surely will be solitaire confinement.
I don’t think there’s any easy fix, moving to a better area is an individual thing yet is also the core issue when it comes to transportation+rent+cost-of-living.
Lack of socializing. We’ve lost the third place in modern society. It’s work and home and nothing else. Lots of people work from home now, which is great, but only if you have a third place. You have to meet people in the real world and find a way to connect with them.
People laugh, but churches are a good way to do that. Check one out, sit in the back, and watch the people who show up- the demographics, make sure the congregation is diverse, etc. If you see a same-sex couple walk in and sit down like they’ve done it a hundred times, you don’t have to worry about all the hate bullshit.
Church is a great way to meet people in a place where everyone feels safe and accepted. They are extremely welcoming to newcomers. There are always activities and groups to join. Churches have been the third place for literally centuries.
Even if you have irreconcilable philosophical differences, check out a Unitarian church.
This is good advice but also note there are other alternatives to church that function the same way like humanist churches or the satanic temple. Note the satanic temple has nothing to do with satin and is not the same as the church of satin.
Church is not a great place for third places- unless you happen to be like all the others at that particular church.
No church will actually accept you unless you’re the same as them. The “sameness” doesn’t have to be about race or orientation or accepting that.
They might be totally willing to let you in the front door, but unless you conform, that won’t be for long.
Libraries are a much, much better 3rd place, and they don’t try to ram theology down your throat to use it.
I’ve never talked to anyone in a library. Have you? Generally conversations are taboo in my experience. Maybe things have changed since I was able to go to one and relax.
Yes.
All the time.
I’m there at least once a week and I usually chat with the librarians for recommendations and to catch up with a few staff I’ve gotten to know.
They also have around 30 different clubs going on weekly, one of which I occasionally lead (teaching people the basics of 3d printing and design,) and that’s not including the dozens of book clubs they got, or the movie clubs.
And then there’s the larger events like “art days” or visiting cultural groups. The drag story hour, the princess story hour; the story hour for adults.
The major alternatives to prom and homecoming dances.
The tabletop gaming sessions.
Bingo night. Gin, hearts, spades and bridge night.
Most libraries will have something for everyone, even the poorly funded Hicksville ones where the churches likes to sell itself as an alternative 3rd space.
