To be clear, I am only talking about people like the average working class Trump voter. The ones who just got caught by misinformation, and just haven’t been able to find a way out. Trump and all his mates are terrible people, and should be held accountable.
The average voter is another thing. My attitude is that I got lucky, and found out that Trump and his mates are terrible, instead of getting sucked down a rabbit hole of supporting them. Knowing how fascism works, I don’t know if I’d be able to reliably land on the right side if fascism happened in my home country. And if I don’t believe I could reliably spot fascism, I’m not comfortable acting like those who support Trump could have.
This isn’t a discussion of “just be a good person”. I know plenty of amazing, caring people who believe they’re doing the right thing.
This whole idea of “I can’t say is reliably avoid fascism” is based on this, the school that became fascist for a week. As bad of an experiment that was from that teacher, it was an effective way of teaching how people fall for what should be obviously a bad thing.
I blame them completely. Voters are not children. You’re responsible for your own actions.
Have you seen them at the polls? You’re right, they aren’t children. Individually i think voters are smart, but as a collective they are dumber than children. If you consider that it’s no surprise that Google searches like “did Biden drop out” spiked on election day.
If a grown adult with the mental acuity of a child assaults you and tries to rob you, you are entirely justified in fighting them off and holding them morally culpable for their actions.
If said manchild instead publically advocates for and votes to have someone else do this to you, they are just as morally culpable.
Idiocy may be an explanation, but it is no excuse.
Which is totally fair. I’m just saying there are a fuck ton of people that either don’t care, aren’t invested in politics, or aren’t online as much as we are. Or if they are online they sure as shit ain’t here or on Reddit. They’re on websites like Facebook where they get fed ragebait like it’s candy because it gets facebook more clicks and more money. It’s easy to see these people as just “stupid” but in reality this is the internet to them and that’s all they see. They’re not stupid necessarily, but when it comes to the important shit they’re definitely ignorant.
As the saying goes, you may not be interested in politics, but politics is interested in you.
Democracy doesn’t work if everyone is stupid and misinformed.
Americans currently have an average literacy ability of 5th - 6th graders. Less than 10% of Americans are capable of independently, critically evaluating contrasting information.
A person who chooses to be surrounded by stupidity, and then absorbs that stupidity, is stupid.
Yes, there is a difference between stupidity (low mental aptitude, ability, potential) and ignorance (low actual knowledge set), but ignorance makes you stupid, and stupidity makes you ignorant, or even worse, full of ‘knowledge’ of false facts.
Frankly, I’ll go so far as to say that if you willingly choose to consistently retard your own understanding of the world, by getting all your info from idiots on Facebook or TikTok, then you are definitionally retarded.
I’m very, very tired of acting like misinformed idiots, who continuous choose to become more idiotic and misinformed, who are extremely belligerent, do not accurately fit into this definition.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/retard
Merriam Webster:
retard (verb)
to delay or impede the development or progress of : to slow up especially by preventing or hindering advance or accomplishment
People should always care about politics, understanding it is understanding how your life is governed.
I blame capitalism, the underfunded education, and the well-oiled propaganda machine of the tech industry
This.
Both sides got you to this point.
Both sides this both sides that
Have you ever considered that the world doesn’t conform to your intuitions of perfect balance?
I blame capitalism. It’s profitable to keep Americans stupid.
As a non-USian viewing all this from the outside, I’d say blaming the people at the bottom for what the largest gaslighting machine in the history of human civilization has managed to achieve is absolutely masochistic.
Your anti-democratic political establishment is to blame for this.
Seriously. Ever liberal I know immediately started blaming the voters
Trump has been trash since the 1980s. He was a garbage president in 2016. If you “fell for it” in 2020 and/or 2024, you’re dumber than dirt.
I am considering whether my mother and I will have a relationship going forward. It was already strained by the last orange term. I instituted a no-politics rule to save our relationship.
She knows I’ve been planning to move to NZ because he won again. I mentioned that I’m feeling enormous conflict about leaving my partner (can’t follow due to refugee status and lack of citizenship) and she told me she’s optimistic about the future and we live in the “greatest country on earth.” This was on inauguration day and I fucking lost it.
Emails that I have sent to her since:
Subj: Trump orders US withdrawal from the World Health Organization - Ars Technica
You shouldn’t vote and your offspring have to live with the consequences of your vote.
Subj: He pardoned the Jan 6 rioters
You contributed to violent criminals (some convicted of seditious conspiracy) walking free. You did this.
Subj: You voted to humiliate my friends
https://www.notus.org/whitehouse/trump-gender-sex-order-passports
Subj: Trump Rescinds Biden Order Aimed at Lowering Prescription Drug Prices
You cause harm to innocent people with your vote.
Honestly, I’ve concluded that she’s a bad person for voting for him. I still love her. She raised me and protected me from an abusive father (as best she could). But this fucking sucks and she sucks for helping to make it happen. There’s a real possibility that I will end my relationship with her because of this. And that sucks, but there has to be a line.
So how far have you gotten with your plans for NZ? I ask because I always see people commenting about doing that but 99.9% of them are just venting.
A lot.
The information was not hidden, he wasn’t even trying to hide it. It’s not like you had to read between the lines. Anyone who willingly voted for him is on my shit-list. I understand not liking Biden or Kamala, but I will never understand looking between them and Trump and thinking that, in any way, he would be the better alternative in any capacity. He is a facist, and even worse, he’s a dumb one. He’s easily entertained and influenced. He doesn’t care about anyone that isn’t him (or that he doesn’t want to fuck). He’s not president because he cares, he’s president because he can. I think anyone who voted for him was incredibly selfish, minimum. “He’s going to lower groceries.” Even if he did, is that worth it the oligarchy? Is it worth losing rights? Is it worth Palestine? Is it worth everything else increasing? Is it worth making way for a Dictator? Is it worth making a home for facists? Is it worth watching families be ripped apart?
I would say no, but many of my countrymen disagreed.
A lot.
I know there’s a proportion that were simply ignorant and tuned out of politics… but most Trump voters did so over the very loud objections of trans relatives or while openly embracing the nativism.
Lastly, I think that Harris did a terrible job advocating for her election and she owns a fair portion of the blame as well.
Trump wasn’t an unknown this time. He attempted to subvert our election process and he’s a convicted rapist. He openly embraced corruption during his last term and is already shilling crypto bullshit.
Trump voters are terrible selfish people - end of story.
Trump voters knowingly voted for a rapist. That’s not hyperbole. It’s a matter of public record now. I think that’s all that needs to be said.
As did Biden voters, what’s your point?
lol, you again?
Oh right, you were that racist from earlier
lol I see the insult effort has dropped precipitously
Go back to reddit
Even lower effort. Lmao.
🙄
Democrat voters were knowingly voting for literal genocide. This has to be the worlds worst virtue signal.
I want you to explain for me how voting for Trump is - somehow, according to you - not voting for literal genocide.
In point of fact: Trump just removed the (admittedly woefully insufficient) weapon restrictions that were previously being applied to Israel
Besides the irrelevant symbolic posturing from Biden being undone, nothing Trump does or will do absolves Biden.
Lets say Trump raped 70 people and Democrats raped 60 people. One cannot say “I would never vote for a rapist”, and then endorse Democrats. Replace the word rape with genocide and multiply the numbers by a thousand.
So far, Trump has already done more to reign in the carnage in Gaza than the Democrats did, BlueMaga types like you only don’t realize that because you were aggressively denying the extent of the genocide under Biden.
What did he do?
Secured a ceasefire
That was under Biden. Try again?
If you did any research, rather than just trying to confirm your own fantasy, you’d know that it was done by Trumps envoy, so drop the smug reddit shithead act and actually look at the facts.
Cease fire was negotiated and secured by the Biden administration. Try again.
Edit: or am I misunderstanding what you’re saying?
You aren’t. It’s a .ml account so they are probably just trolling.
No, it was not, it was negotiated by Trump’s envoy. Maybe you should do the smallest amount of research before trying to act like a smug redditer and give away your ignorance
His cabinet is full of zionists. There is not a big difference between Biden, trump and Harris. Both parties will always try to outcompete each other in supporting Israel
Elise Stefanik, Donald Trump’s nominee for U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, stated during her January 2025 Senate confirmation hearing that Israel has a “biblical right” to the occupied West Bank.
Steve Witkoff, Donald Trump’s Middle East envoy, suggested relocating some Palestinians from Gaza to Indonesia aka ethenically cleasing them
Trump also cancelled the performative action of genocide joe of halding 2000 ton of bomb to the idf
I’m not saying Trump doesn’t support Israel and the genocidal Zionist agenda in general, but I also don’t believe he’s as personally passionate about it as the people like Blinken and Biden are. Like, he will continue supporting Israel in the way that the USA always does, but he was willing to tell them to knock it off when the sheer horrific brutality of what they were doing was becoming a millstone around the neck of the USA agenda, which the last year of genocide absolutely was. I’m saying he’s as bad as someone like Reagan on Palestine, which is still bad, but the Biden administration was the worst of the worst.
Lmao what the actual fuck? Are you being serious? Did you not see the article I posted, or even try to corroborate/disprove it yourself, and then realize that it is a thing, and it’s easy to corroborate?
How deep in the BlueAnon well are you that you think lifting the entirely symbolic ban is more important than securing a fucking ceasefire! Jesus Christ, you people genuinely don’t see us as human, you care more about scoring points against Trump, and you’d rather we all die if it proves you right.
Your refusal to believe or understand facts and context around the negotiation is deeply telling. Just so you understand why we are all continuing to downvote you.
Also:
You were the one describing actual facts as “utter nonsense”
And I understand why you continue to downvote: because you’re so fucking upset that Trump won the election and didn’t continue the genocide that you’ve decided to embrace fantasy and are lashing out at anyone who reminds you of reality.
Like what? Last thing I read he continued shipping heavy weapons that were previously banned from being shipped to Israel and some clown in his cabinet stated that Israël has some sort of holy right to the land. I’m not American and I don’t approve of the democrats way handling it, but the republicans so far seem worse.
He literally secured a ceasefire; you really need to re-examine what news sources you’re consuming if you only heard that he repealed Biden’s entirely symbolic ban on one type of bomb, but somehow managed to miss the ceasefire.
The ceasefire happened before Trump took office
It was secured by Trump envoy.
This just shows me that republican are more vocal about israel support. The biggest military aid happened during Obama and biden bypassed two time the congress to help the genocide. He also gave more defensive system to Israel so it feel safe to continue the war
Oh fucking stop! Trump has ALWAYS been one of Israel’s biggest supporters he’s given Bibi free reign to do whatever the fuck he wants. Stop with the whataboutism already. You people have literally just elected the nazi Party. Admit to your mistake and fucking fix it.
removed, he’s already objectively done more than the Democrats did to reign in Israel, you just don’t realize it because you’re a BlueMAGA fanatic that spent the last year doing everything you could to deny and downplay the genocide that Biden was overseeing.
Jesus Christ, I’m not even American. I couldn’t give less of a shit if it weren’t for the fact that you unhinged motherfuckers are in charge of the largest military in the world and are supposed to hold the russians back. Just remove your head from your colon and fix your mistake.
Not being American make it even worse that you’re a blueMAGA cultist, dumb ass.
Perhaps you should take your brain out of the box and put it back in your head. Again
I
Don’t
Give
A
Fuck
About
The
Democrats
I just have a problem with fascist dictatorships that threaten to annex their neighbours. But you know I guess my anti fascist stance makes me “blueMAGA”. Go to school and learn about how Hitler rose to power in Germany, you fucking child!
You clearly do give a fuck about the Democrats, given this whole conversation was started by you defending their genocide. and no, supporting genocidal right wingers doesn’t’ make you “anti-fascist.”
You should have told us from the beginning. You value ukranian lives more than palestinian lives. All life should be valued
Trump will be objectively worse for Palestine than Biden (not that you actually care).
he’s already objectively done more than the Democrats did to reign in Israel
How is it not possible for you (all of you who parrot this) to see that Trump tossed you a brief reprieve so you can make EXACTLY this argument? Are you only capable of looking two weeks into the future or something?
As I say every time: Biden was awful for Gaza. Trump is also awful for Gaza, and then he’ll take down as much of the rest of the world and the US with it as he can.
You are literally and transparently doing exactly what Trump wants you to be doing right now, because it legitimizes him.
Israel Invades Jenin Days After Signing Gaza “Ceasefire”
Israeli leaders suggest the operation was plotted during a backroom deal made during Gaza ceasefire vote
Among those killed by Israeli forces on Tuesday was a civilian named Abed Alwahhab Saadi. In footage posted online, he can be seen walking unarmed along an empty road as he suddenly comes under fire and begins to run before being shot and falling face down in the ground. Another shocking video shows a family repeatedly being targeted by gunfire while driving in their car, reportedly killing another civilian, Ahmed Nimer Obeidi.
Medics also came under attack, with at least three doctors and two nurses injured by Israeli gunfire within the first two hours of the invasion. Israeli forces also besieged Al-Amal hospital near the camp and fired live ammunition from its vicinity while obstructing medics from reaching the injured. At the same time, residents described Israeli troops forcibly taking over civilian homes across the city and turning them into makeshift military positions.
Tuesday’s operation came just two days after the start of the “ceasefire” in Gaza, whose first phase is supposed to last for six weeks. Israeli ministers and media reports have suggested the military operations in Jenin and other areas of the West Bank are part of a deal Netanyahu made with his cabinet ahead of the ceasefire in Gaza.
How is it not possible for you (all of you who parrot this) to see that Trump tossed you a brief reprieve so you can make EXACTLY this argument? Are you only capable of looking two weeks into the future or something?
No, I’m not capable of looking two weeks into the future, and neither are you. Currently, the fact is that he secured a ceasefire, proving that Biden was not trying to for the previous year. The rest is just BlueMaga fantasizing about more genocide, because you care more about being right than you do about thousands of dead foreigners.
Biden was awful for Gaza. Trump is also awful for Gaza
I’ve had to listen to a year of you shitlibs bleating endlessly about how important it was to vote blue because they’re the lesser evil, now that it turns out Trump was actually the lesser evil, suddenly you’re abandoning that.
and then he’ll take down as much of the rest of the world and the US with it as he can.
No, he’s not going to “take down the rest of the world”, at least not anymore than the average US president. As for taking down the US: Good! it’s an evil empire that spreads death across the globe and we would be better off without it.
You are literally and transparently doing exactly what Trump wants you to be doing right now, because it legitimizes him.
You people genuinely don’t believe foreigners are human, do you? That’s why you care less about saving thousands of lives than you do about whether Trump looks good or not. I don’t care about the parasocial kayfabe, I care that there’s a ceasefire.
I’ve had to listen to a year of you shitlibs bleating endlessly about how important it was to vote blue because they’re the lesser evil, now that it turns out Trump was actually the lesser evil, suddenly you’re abandoning that.
You’ll find plenty of comments where I acknowledge that Biden and Harris were bad on this issue, so please, don’t put words into my mouth. My position has been the same. Biden/Harris bad on this issue, Trump worse.
You people genuinely don’t believe foreigners are human, do you? That’s why you care less about saving thousands of lives than you do about whether Trump looks good or not.
Maybe in a few months or years you’ll have a better grasp of cause and effect. Those lives aren’t pawns to me, they are pawns to Trump. You’ve seen his opener so far.
No, I’m not capable of looking two weeks into the future, and neither are you.
I’m capable of knowing how Trump operates though through past experience. And so are you, but you have taken the cake he gave you so you have stopped looking.
I already showed you how meaningless his action was - Israel is just killing the same folks but in a different area now. And I guarantee you it’s only the beginning.
You people genuinely don’t believe foreigners are human, do you?
You’re wrong, but it’s a great way to avoid processing any of my words if you insist that’s the case.
You’ll find plenty of comments where I acknowledge that Biden and Harris were bad on this issue, so please, don’t put words into my mouth. My position has been the same. Biden/Harris bad on this issue, Trump worse.
Objectively incorrect
Maybe in a few months or years you’ll have a better grasp of cause and effect. Those lives aren’t pawns to me, they are pawns to Trump. You’ve seen his opener so far.
His opener of securing a ceasefire, something that has upset you so much you’re know constantly fantasizing about how hes totally going to do an even bigger genocide in the future, and getting big bad when people remind you that you can’t actually see the future.
I already showed you how meaningless his action was - Israel is just killing the same folks but in a different area now. And I guarantee you it’s only the beginning.
My god, you really have become so deranged you actually believe you have the ability to see the future. And no, Isreal is not killing nearly as many people, so it’s not meaningless, or it wouldn’t be if you actually cared about the lives of foreigners, but you don’t.
You’re wrong, but it’s a great way to avoid processing any of my words if you insist that’s the case.
Processing your words is how I determined that you don’t consider us human
Stop virtue signalling like you have a moral high ground to stand on. Democrats are also the Nazi party. You only like Democrats because you were not the person being slaughtered in their concentration camp and you do not care about anyone but yourself.
I don’t understand your argument. Are you American? What did you vote for and why? If you are not American what do you gain? Are you active outside of Lemmy? What organizations would you suggest to support?
What is constructive on your style of discourse?
The argument is Democrats are cherry picking the sole bad thing their guy did not do. Then they frame the conversation as if that thing is the only thing that matters
I’m not even American! Im just watching the world fall apart because you fucking bible monkeys are too fucking stupid to see the writing on the wall. You just keep banging on the keyboard: WHAT ABOUT GAZA? WHAT ABOUT GAZA?
WHAT ABOUT GAZA?
WHAT ABOUT GAZA?And in doing so have elected litteral fucking fascists who do not plan on having elections in 4 years. And I genuinely would not give a shit what happens to your armpit of a country if it weren’t for the fact that the USA has put itself in such a position that many countries rely on you to keep your shit together and not elect someone who threatens to… Oh I don’t know… INVADE PART OF THE EUROPEAN UNION!
Get your head out of your arse and stop pretending that both candidates are just as bad as each other. Sure by western European standards the Dems were pretty far right, but not like trump. Not like the heritage Foundation. Not like musk!
So you only care about things when they impact you. That is your argument.
Don’t get me wrong, I feel for the civilians in Gaza, but that’s a drop in the ocean compared to what’s coming. Also the ceasefire is specifically in Gaza. Israel is taking this opportunity to soften up the west bank.
Another reminder that Westerns don’t consider us to be human. Fuck you, I hope someone drops you in an ocean you ghoul.
Between trying to stop a genocide and losing some rights i would pick stopping a genocide. Us citizens had decades to make a valid non imperialist third party before Trump appeared but no they decided to vote to the same two terrible parties complains and think that some protests is going to make politicians act for the good of everybody
Who the fucking care about a random country in middle east when there are bigger things at stakes? get a grip, fuck gaza, israel and all in-between. Nobody gives a shit.
this one said the quiet part out loud
If the US was occupied you would want the whole word to support you. Do you feel the same about Russia and Ukraine?
You’re a white supremacist, you don’t blink at the USA killing hundreds of thousands of non-whites so long as it upholds White hegemony.
Voting for trump would’ve been the same. You really think he cares about ending the war in gaza? Like out of the two who do you think would’ve been easier to convince? In my eyes that was definitely Kamala
Well you should get your eyes checked. Kamala also doesn’t care about ending the genocide (not war) in Gaza.
And trump is different how?
He already secured a ceasefire.
Do the Palestinians get reparations or do Israel get away with what they’ve done? If they are getting away with it, Israel are just going to continue it again down the line.
Good, you people are so desperate for more dead Palestinians.
This is more concerning the replies here, but in this discussion, saying “Trump did X thing, so that’s why it’s the voters fault” is precisely why Trump voters exist. You just flip it and say “Biden has been supporting genocide, that’s all you need to know” and that’s a sufficient argument for Trump voters.
The issue is the amount of fuckups each side had, and while Trump is pretty clearly in the lead (I mean, he’s straight up a felon) to us chronically online people, I don’t know about normies who only watch the news that didn’t get the message through clear enough (not American, so I don’t know), or just use Twitter (which is Musk’s propaganda now, btw) or even other media that just recommend you what you want to see. They probably see constant allegations against the Democrats too.
For what it’s worth, I refuse to watch news networks, and have done for many years now, due to the utter drivel they push, and the breathless, manufactured urgency and false equivalence they habitually resort to. I do my best to source and corroborate things I consume across a broad ideological and geopolitical range. I’m fully aware of the rampant idiocy that Biden stuck to for large swaths of his term (and more broadly, his whole fucking career). As a result of that, I’m not ever going to agree that Trump in any way shape or form improved the situation in Gaza.
If anything, my read on it is that he likely prolonged the slaughter by getting his envoy to push Bibi to time it like this - honestly, it’s… suspiciously convenient for Trump that Bibi agreed to the same fucking thing that was presented the better part of a year ago, and that it just happens to almost exactly align with his inauguration.
This is all just part of Trump trying to project the image that he’ll “fix things on day one”. But he’s incapable of that, and only knows how to sandbag and sabotage shit so the timing makes him look better to his domestic American audience (who often consume stories like this in an uncritical and non-skeptical fashion, which is a tendency Trump is fully aware of and relies on quite consistently).
On one hand, his entire ideology and what he said he wants to do was extremely hateful and even someone who didn’t think further into it should have seen that. They voted for him for at least that, deporting immigrants and all that. On the other hand, the rise of fascism is a sytemic issue caused by capitalism. It happens every time the economy isn’t doing well, that’s why people suddenly started voting for the NSDAP (Hitler’s party) too. We’re supposed to just write down our favorite party (that we select based on random information we’ve seen on social media once or who looks the coolest) on a piece of paper every few years, so we feel like we’re participating and we can spend the rest of our time working for the rich and consuming their products. We’re not supposed to actually take part in how our country is run. We don’t have any say in the economy anyway, that’s decided by people who just so happened to get rich and the people we elect to act in our interest just get bought out by the rich too.
He said he was a racist Nazi who wanted to be a dictator. Yeah i blame the people who voted for him.
How much do you blame Germans? As in the ones from 1940s?
We might not have started killing people yet but the signs are here, for anyone who cares to know their history. We had a Nazi salute at the inauguration for Christ sake.
Yeah. It’s shocking that your friends and neighbors are party to this. It was to many Germans too.
deleted by creator
Everyone had a least 9 years to figure out who Trump is. I’d be more lenient if it was a matter of months. But it was almost a decade since he first ran.
I know there are a lot of factors working against people (capitalism, propaganda, groupthink) but after all that time, I think they should own their decision.
So yes, I blame them. The man talked about injecting bleach for chist’s sakes. And that was all over the news while many people were home and could pay attention if they wanted to.
If we’re talking the average working class voter, I hold a great amount of sympathy for them. I really do understand where they’re coming from.
The Democrats are corrupt as hell and aren’t doing a damn thing for the American people. Pre-Trump Republicans are corrupt as hell and aren’t doing a damn thing for the American people. The country is legitimately falling apart and there’s no one to turn to.
Here comes this guy out of nowhere who’s never been in politics and thus not beholden to their corrupt schemes. He’s promising to tear down the whole damn system that isn’t working for the average American. He recognizes and acknowledges the plight of working class America. He’s claiming that it needs to break completely before it can be repaired.
This is the reasoning behind my little brother supporting Trump. He’s so desperate for real change that he’s willing to overlook a lot of Trump’s bad behaviors. To my brother, Trump is a useful wrecking ball, a bulldozer coming to forcefully wipe away everything wrong with politics.
Of course, Trump has no real intentions of fixing anything. He’s just there to loot the government and shield himself from the law. All of the right wing supporters, politicians, preachers, and business execs are just stepping stones.
Agreed, this particular type of person I can at least feel empathy for. Feeling the system has failed and deciding that someone who will blow it all up is better than someone who will maintain the status quo.
I feel that people like your brother are in the minority though and most of Trump’s voters like his policies, and so I completely blame them, but that’s just my gut feeling, I don’t have stats or studies.
Sorry bud, but your brother is a Nazi. Voting for fascism just to change things? My ass. If a fascist tells you he’s a fascist, believe him. And fascists don’t want change. They want power.
Fuck anyone who actually voted for trump. Period. Edit: it’s on them to try to redeem themselves
