If you asked me like 4-8 years ago, I felt kind of neutral about things. Now I don’t feel an ounce bit patriotic or proud enough to even state that I’m an American.
Now, when I see an American flag around, I see it as a symbol of fascism, anti-intelluctialism, neo-nazism, and late-stage capitalism amongst other things. If there’s an American flag flying on a car, I can totally see that person possessing at least one of those qualities.
I suppose it’s good to be self aware and not blindly feel patriotic and ignoring that your country needs improvement.
I don’t know what I’m expecting in the comments here but just thought I would get this off my chest.
Yes and no.
You can can display an American flag and not be a facist. Facists can’t co-opt the US flag.
The flags that look similar to the American flag, but have a blue line or are black/grey are the ones that cringe me up. Those are actual false flags and are anti-patriotic. Right up there with the “rebel” flag.
Maybe get a tiny little flag and put it in your garden.
I dont think these meets my standards for ask lemmy. Just throwing that out there.
You’re right, rule 6. But fuck it.
The same happens in Spain if you are leftist since the civil war, even before maybe.
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I kinda know what you mean… I used to not think anything weird about seeing an American flag, sometimes it even made me feel patriotic. Now when I see a car with an American flag sticker I assume the person driving probably has a loaded gun and is desperate to get into an argument about something
Exactly my point. It tends to be the case too.
Totally healthy! I started that when my friends died in Iraq or came back without limbs and sustaining life long trauma. But newbies always welcome 😁
Is it sad that I know your rough age, just based on the fact that you went to THIS country which had an unwarrented war return kids with missing limbs, or they returned in a box…as opposed to if you had said that you went to THIS OTHER country which had an unwarrented war return kids with missing limbs, or they returned in a box.
I know you’re 35-45, and not 70-80. The description is the same, but the boomers had a different country. Vietnam.
I just find it sad that the idea of our country sending an entire generation of kids off to die in a pointless war not only happened…it’s happened for multiple generations! The ONLY difference is that Iraq wasn’t mandated with a draft.
Lol pretty much. My HS US history teacher was a Vietnam vet. He kept a running total of Iraq civilian death and total death toll on the whiteboard. Told us stories from Vietnam of calling in bunk artillery coordinates cause he was tired of seeing dead civs, and how he wish he was a bomber crewmember cause then he wouldn’t have seen it. He updated the Iraq numbers at the start of every class.
Only teacher I’ve seen hit a kid. Kid was being a severe and petty little shit and directly insulted the trauma of servicemen. That teacher wouldn’t have given a fuck if you shit talked the military or the wars but insulting the suffering of his comrades in that specific way sent him. I think everyone kind of just mutually decided it didn’t happen.
The flag doesn’t bother me but the pledge to it does. The traitor flags (Confederate battle flag and one bearing a president’s name) do.
For me it’s been longer than that. I am a queer Canadian and anytime I have travelled the US or stayed with friends and seen any group carrying or wearing American flags that hasn’t given me the “ick” so much as rung alarm bells that those people are not safe.
Thing is, it’s the same thing with the Canadian flag. Any group flying too many Canadian flags outside of Canada Day is likely to be Conservative and anti-queer. Anti-Trans protesters or anti-vaxxers on highway overpasses? Canadian flag. Lifted truck soaring down the highway with a “Fuck Trudeau” bumper sticker - Canada flag. Hoard of protesters demanding book bans, group of people protesting Pride with a “you are gunna burn pedos” sign, antiDEI crusader mob - Canadian flag. It doesn’t take long before one starts to draw certain conclusions about a person’s character when they wave it around. For those of us trans folk who can it’s a sign to hide. A literal red flag.
Amoungst the left up here the flag is a complicated symbol. Many of us on the West Coast see it as a symbol of colonial practice and an insensitive declaration of an occupying nation on stolen territory for people who are still here and whose original sovereignty is still not properly acknowledged. It’s not a symbol of pride and if personally used as such it’s a sign of insensitivity and work to be done. At the same time I would not say that I am not proud of my Country for how far we’ve come. We are a nation in therapy who has the opportunity to put the work in to getting over some really bad murderous and selfish flaws and try new things to make things right. When I had an American friend up here it took a bit for him to understand how seriously the effort is to recon with our past and he treated us like a utopia of leftist sentiment but it is like therapy, yeah we might be putting the work in - but we can see how much further we need to go and praise doesn’t hit us as “job well done” it’s a reminder of how shitty it still is. But if anyone ever thinks that this complicated and nuanced relationship to country would stop us from rallying together to fight to preserve our rights to keep working towards that better future they would be dead wrong.
So I understand pretty well where you’re coming from but for a lot of us this isn’t a particularly new thing. It just is affecting more and more people as they wake up to realizing how these symbols are used.
It really only feels appropriate to see it upside down these days.
I agree that our history has always been fucked up. But there are degrees of fucked up-ness and we’re officially leaving the measurement scale.
It’s fucking over.
I may have a chance to travel to Europe for the first time in my life, and I’m worried that the Ugly American stereotype will be factored in to my reception. Probably won’t go until things calm down here/the nukes fly.
We traveled to Spain while wearing a Fuck Trump button in 2018 (Yes cringe i know) . You wouldn’t believe the amount of love and laughs we got. Very nice place btw.
Definitely go if you can. I’ve never experienced any sort of discrimination based on my American nationality in Europe. In general, I think it’s assumed that if you’re willing to travel and are respectful of the local culture you aren’t one of the bad ones. You might get a few questions about your experiences or feelings about the current situation, but that’s the most I’ve seen.
That said, some cities have recently become pretty anti-tourism in general, especially in Spain and Italy from what I’ve heard. But this isn’t against Americans, it’s against all tourists driving up housing prices.
Thanks! That is good to know.
We (or at least loads of us) understand that while your government is deplorable, a lot of ordinary Americans are not. I guess it would also depend on where you go and how. If you’re decked out in TRUMP/MAGA-clothes, then I suppose you might meet quite a few people who will instantly want nothing to do with you. But if you’re a normal person, you most likely won’t have any issues, aside from questions about U.S. issues.
Just come over. We won’t bite. Don’t put off your plans because of this. Enjoy yourself and walk around in a sane country for a while. ;)
Thanks for the laugh. It’s basically all I can do at this point is laugh about how shitty it is.
Came here to post this. Thank you for your service.
“To this extent? Yes.”
Where I live it’s hard to see someone flying an American flag and not immediately assume they’re a bigot.
Magats did to the American flag what they think gay people did to the rainbow.
yeah its like the flag itself. its design. its very nice and meaningful. The folks who go all boner on it makes it like eww. jeesh memorial is just around the corner. mini flags laying around as refuse along with flag plates and napkins. Doing things like that to the flag used to be considered disrespectful. Its like omg this guy burned the flag to symbolize our government no doing things in the way intended by the founders but lol mustard stains on old glory, fuck yeah!
No
Here’s an alternative take to upset the boring consensus here.
Patriotic pride (not necessarily nationalism) is the inevitable product of social cohesion. A society which is cohesive is one where people look at strangers and see them as members of their tribe - essentially, as extended family. It’s a society where citizens are therefore willing to pay high taxes to fund those strangers’ welfare benefits, for example. No welfare state has ever arisen in a country without this essential quality. Almost by definition, social cohesion is closely correlated with patriotism. In the world’s most redistributive countries - I’m talking about Scandinavia, of course - you will see more national flags than you might think given their “leftist” reputation. In Sweden, ordinary houses sometime have flagpoles in the garden, I’ve seen them. None of this is coincidental.
Patriotism can be a dangerous slippery slope, yes. But it’s also what empowers strong states and collective action. Nobody wants a patriotism-free world more than the billionaires that everyone hates here. Be careful what you wish for.
