The other day, my parents asked me (22M) if there were any women that I find attractive (I guess because they’re paranoid about me being gay lol) and I told them yes, there’s a fair number of women that I’ve seen in public that I’ve found attractive.
They asked me, “Do you talk to any of them?” and I said “No??? It’s inappropriate to approach women in public unless you have business with them.”
I told them that it is only appropriate for a man to talk to a woman he doesn’t know when the social situation is explicitly designed for meeting strangers—dating apps, hobby groups, meeting friends of friends, etc. In my view, cold approaching women you don’t know just because you’re attracted to them is harassment.
My parents told me that I’m being ridiculous and making excuses because I’m nervous. They are adamant that I need to learn to approach women or else I will never find a partner. I told them that times have changed and this is disrespectful and potentially predatory behavior along the lines of unsolicited flirting and catcalling. Approaching women is a violation of their personal space and could make them feel very uncomfortable, especially if they feel like they don’t have an easy way out.
My parents are almost 60 and they are very conservative, so they don’t exactly follow progressive discourse, and I feel like they’re super out of touch on this as a result. Particularly, my mom tends to strike up conversations with other women in public, and she’s skeptical when I tell her that I can’t do the same thing because I’m a man and would be viewed as a potential predator.
But I also don’t get out much, which makes me second-guess how distorted my understanding of the social world is from reality. My parents are like a broken clock, and sometimes they DO have a point about something despite 90% of their opinions being insane. Maybe there is a more nuanced reality that I’m not picking up on.
So I wanted to ask here. Are my parents out of touch? Am I out of touch? Are we both wrong? I want to know your opinion.
The unsatisfying answer: you’re both a little bit right.
You’re correct that times have changed somewhat. But I think it’s overkill to say that “approaching women at all unless you have business with them is disrespectful and borderline harassment”.
Of course, context matters a lot. Don’t bother women at their jobs, the bank is not a lady zoo. But in a social situation where you would expect to meet other people, it’s fine to strike up a conversation with strangers or even ask them out.
However, by your own admission you don’t get out much. So I’m assuming you don’t get a lot of situations like bars or parties where this would happen. So I would try networking in your community, develop some hobbies, go to functions where you might meet someone in this manner.
As usual, the nuanced answer that doesn’t oversimplify the complexities is the best one. Good answer.
I bet women 30-40 years ago would have loved to see this answer too. It’s a good thing that the world has changed in this regard.
OP already accounted for social situations where you would expect to meet people, though, and his parents seem to think that he should be approaching people in other situations—like in a store, or on the street. I’d be very cautious about that.
Yeah, I specifically mentioned to my parents seeing an attractive employee stocking shelves in the grocery store, and they said that I should have approached her. She was clearly busy when I passed by her. I just kept my distance and casually thought, “Wow, there are plenty of fish in the sea. I’ll definitely find one eventually, in a more appropriate social setting.”
Not once did it cross my mind to strike up a conversation with a busy employee, but they insisted that I should have. In my mind, the fact that it’s easy to find women that I find attractive is proof that I don’t need to go out of my way for one. Attraction is not a quick time event; to me, it’s a reminder of abundance, of just how many chances I have to find someone. I don’t need to do silly stunts or disrupt busy people. I just need to keep creating social opportunities for it to happen organically, and eventually it will. I think my parents saying that I have to chat up every woman that I find attractive no matter where is silly and neurotic. I believe being patient and not stressing over every “missed opportunity” is the best way to go.
Besides, this thread is proof that I’m not ready for a girlfriend in the first place. It would be great for me to practice talking to strangers casually and making some friends first. That way, I can get comfortable talking to people in general and build my confidence.
Yeah, definitely don’t bother people at work.
‘you know, you shouldn’t be in the frozen food section… because you could melt all this stuff!’
like in a store or on the street.
Well yeah, I think that’s part of what’s being said. I would say that in a store, or cafe is totally fine. On the street is a little weird, but in most public places it’s fine.
Also, if you’re ugly or poor, it’s always unwanted and disrespectful. Whether or not you’re ugly or even poor is up to them not you, so you have no way to ever know beforehand.
Women in general have made this so fucking difficult for men that it really should be mandatory for them to approach us at this point just to avoid issues.
I’m married, but worried about my sons getting in trouble for ever trying to approach a woman outside of a bar at this point, it seems the only place where asking a girl out randomly is still allowed at this point.
Totally disagree on so many points. Women haven’t made things difficult, if anything men (historically) have done so because women haven’t been given a choice.
But the narrative that if you’re ugly or poor anything you do is unwanted is just not true. It’s an idea pushed by those in their parents basement justifying why they don’t have a girlfriend.
Teach your son that no means no, and when an uncomfortable woman might mean “no” without saying it, and he’ll be fine. Respect for the wishes of others takes care of 99.9999% of any trouble.
I agree. But the thing with women… Oh, I wish you could visit the post-Soviet countries. Especially Belarus, Russia, Ukraine… You would be amazed by what’s there.
Mr. Tate is that you?
Creepy
Oh and what’s there, subservient “trad wives”? Get out of your basement and stop blaming others for your problems.
Are you talking to me??? Let’s start with the fact that I am a woman. And what do you mean by “traditional women”?
You’re just plain wrong. I’ve seen men yelled at for asking politely in “acceptable” social situations.
You can pretend it’s not happening, but that doesn’t change the fact that it occurs regularly.
The problem isn’t that No isn’t being respected, it’s that women are getting offended at even being asked.
If someone yelled about asking politely in an acceptable social situation, then they were wrong. That is not normal. It’s certainly not a regular occurrence.
That being said, given your prior comment, which just screams “incel, mgtow, etc”, I’m gonna go ahead and doubt you saw what you say you did.
It is a regular occurrence. Regular enough that it’s been reflected in popular media for decades. They even make entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
Are you honestly so naive that you think those initial rejections don’t happen in real life? Everyone saw them at high school, and everyone saw them even more on social media when said girl spreads it around to cyberbully the boy even more. It’s been more than 20 years since I was at high school, and even when we didn’t have cellphones that shit still happened, and it didn’t stop at University either.
So your examples are “things that happened to me in high school”, and “movies which are obviously real”?
Again I’m going to have to ask you to leave your basement and interact with real people. You are wrong.
Do you think highschool isn’t real?
We aren’t talking about 40 year olds dating here grandm.
> entire movies about “boy gets rejected by popular girl, boy transforms himself to win her over, boy decides he doesn’t need her anymore because she’s mean”
@BlameThePeacock can you name any? I’ve never seen such a plot.
It’s a major plotline in napoloean dynamite, and it’s the plotline for a side character in legally blonde
I assume you’re old enough to know those movies.
Anyone, of either gender, would react negatively to someone interacting with them with the energy and perspective you’re displaying here.
If you think that type of reaction is common, I suggest looking at the common denominator.
What the fuck does my energy level have to do with anything.
I’ve never had to ask a girl out in my life, I’ve been married to only my second relationship for more than half my life, and both ladies approached me.
If you have to ask what your energy/demeanor has to do with women being comfortable with you, you should probably be quiet on this subject.
Or maybe you should stop, because you’re making about as much sense as a potato.
I’m married
That poor woman.
How have women made it difficult for men?
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
Now men who want a relationship can essentially only find one by either being an asshole and asking when they shouldn’t, or using a dating app which is a massive waste of men’s time.
How is it unsafe for a man to approach a woman in a social situation?
“Men are afraid that women will laugh at them. Women are afraid that men will kill them.” —Margaret Atwood
I think the guy you’re responding to is well down the path of believing that it’s “unsafe” to be laughed at.
And you’re so far down a path that you think getting laughed at is an acceptable response to someone asking you out.
Which one is more toxic?
I don’t think laughing at someone is an acceptable response to any person being respectful to another person, and your assumption that I am saying that from my comment shows more about you than me.
Anyone who would laugh at another person just because of how they look or how much money they appear to have is a flawed, unkind person.
Anyone who approaches another person and doesn’t respect if they set physical or verbal boundaries showing they don’t want to be approached is also flawed and either socially unaware/challenged or themselves unkind. And sometimes an easy way to get one of those people to go away is to laugh at them.
It’s unlikely for a cold approach to anyone asking for a date to be successful. Unlike 80 years ago, people aren’t looking for their first romantic connection to turn into life-long marriage; they actually want to have an established rapport with a person before the first date. So if someone just asks another person out with no lead up, or in certain settings, sometimes that will be so disconnected from social realities as to be absurd.
Anyway, regardless of the social intricacies of appropriate places to approach and/or ask out another, believing that women (or men) are a monolith who all will react the same way in a given situation is out of touch, disrespectful, and points to a lot of deep-seated sexism. I hope you can work that out before you pass it onto your son or he’s likely to have a much harder time finding a relationship.
I get the feeling old mate here does not find himself in actual social situations with women very often.
The social expectation was that the man approaches, but now enough women have said that isn’t acceptable in so many situations that it’s no longer safe to do so in practically any situation.
AKA, “A, B, and C aren’t appropriate, so D through Z aren’t safe either!”
Dude rather than accept some much-needed constraints, you’re having a hissy and throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
There are people in this thread saying even doing it as a bar isn’t okay anymore. Name one place where a man would be safe asking without potentially being called a creep even just for a polite inquiry. It sounds like there isn’t one anymore.
Not all women would react that way, but it sounds like there are enough women who think that’s an acceptable response even in a bar that it’s nonlonher longer viable.
I do want to be sympathetic, but I have to be honest in that this seems like incel rhetoric to me.
Women are under no obligation to accept the advances of any random person in public, and framing that as a “them” problem is super disrespectful.
Nobody said they have to accept the advances. I’m saying that by restricting those advances in general, it should put the onus on women to make the advance. They can’t ask men to stop asking everywhere, then complain or be confused when men aren’t asking them out and this is something that is actively happening right now.
I’ve never heard a woman complain or be confused about not being asked out by strangers.
It seems like your sources are a fair step into the manosphere, and you and your sons would have a lot to gain by distancing yourself from that kind of influence. Nothing is as unattractive as bitterness, and you are sounding dangerously close to bitter here, and your attitude will influence your sons approach to life and relationships.
It’s been showing up on YouTube a lot in my feed all of a sudden. Like, past two weeks… some blonde lady men’s advocate trying to explain male behavior to women. She’s an interesting watch, seems more often correct than not (anecdotally).
There was a woman actually complaining about not getting cat-called anymore too. That one was a jaw dropper; but people like that are absolutely out there.
The Dadvocate? Sounds like the YouTuber you’re describing.
Emily W. King.
You’re using anecdotal data, I have actually heard a woman say “why won’t he just ask me out” and that isn’t useful data either.
It keeps coming up in dating studies though, which are useful, and frequently point out that women are complaining or confused about why it’s happening.
I think you will find that “why won’t he just ask me out” is not said about total strangers on the bus etc.
Why is Jackson Lamb arguing for anything nuanced or subtle?
I dunno, this may just be my own sensibilities clouding reality, but I don’t think the “onus” should be on anyone.
Men are more and more frequently getting in trouble for even just asking, which means they need to stop entirely or risk getting in trouble.
Either women take responsibility for asking the men out, or accept that they’re not going to get asked out except by assholes who ignore the risks and are statistically upsetting a lot of women before they succeed.
men* have made this so fucking difficult
for menFTFY
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Sexist comment.
It really is. It actually makes me sad. I’m the grown daughter of a father who sounds a lot like the person you responded to. I love my dad and it’s a complicated relationship as he really doesn’t think he’s a misogynist, he truly believes he’s just “telling it like it is.”
It made me furious for years and now it deeply saddens me. He will never have the chance to truly know his daughter because he is literally incapable of seeing me as an equal in terms of basic humanity. And that is sad because I’m delightful and smart and wickedly funny when I’m comfortable with someone, he doesn’t get to see the authentic version of his own offspring, what a loss…
I’m sorry to hear that, that’s an awful situation to be in. I’m also not close with my parents because they say heinous shit that i can’t stand and support the red team and religion.
What a fucked up world we live in.Chosen family > inherited family
This is Ask Lemmy not Ask Incels.
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I disagree. Although I’m taken I was at a bar hanging with friends and, when I was getting a drink alone, a gal at the bar was totally giving me the “hit on me” eyes.
10 years ago I wouldn’t have seen it or acknowledged it, now that I’ve built more confidence with women I see it more often. That and, anecdotally, when you’re in a relationship women seem to come at you more often.
That makes it worse.
That sounds like some incel shit right there. But since you said you’re married I’m forced to assume that you came by your misogyny honest?
Let’s not attribute this to all women. This is both imposed and from the consumer culture of the patriarchal system. Less often, when it is radical feminism - here it is simply hatred of a man simply because he is a man… I am a girl, and I often see radical feminism… Especially in the post-Soviet space… It’s a wild horror… Especially those raised by mercantile princesses… If I were relaxing in a bar, I definitely wouldn’t want to see a man I didn’t know at that time. Why do you need parks, cafeterias, libraries and just the embankment?
You just made it worse, you’re saying that there’s nowhere a man can ask safely.
Like I said, it should be mandatory for women to be the one to approach at this point.
"it should be mandatory for women to "
Is a wild thing to put in absolutely any sentence.
Why?
It’s mandatory for all men to register for the selective service system in the US, and women don’t have to.
Sometimes things be like that.
I also disagree with conscription. But even if you think it’s a good idea, you’re equating a national service requirement to mandating women speak to men (presumably many of whom they have no interest in). This is just getting wilder and wilder.
What? who suggested women initiate dating conversations with men they have no interest in?
When I say women should have to approach men, I mean that men should not ask, and women should do the asking if they are interested to avoid any issues with women not wanting to be approached. Why the fuck would it mean anything else?
Where did I say that? There are drunk people in the bar, and they don’t always want to meet you. Yes, there are those who are only thirsty for acquaintances, but often they themselves will take the initiative. I suggested a list - cafes, parks, embankments, etc. It’s not always pleasant to talk to people who have been drinking, especially when it’s not part of the group.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers, you could get a positive response, but it’s equally likely that a women (or even a group) will start yelling at you for doing so.
That’s what I’m saying about nowhere to ask safely. Some women will be totally fine with being approached, and others will not, but there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
We need to bring back the whole gay handkerchief system and adapt it to the whole population, If everyone wore an accessory or object that indicates your willingness(or not) to be approached it would make the whole situation 100% better. Like a stoplight party, but all the time and with slightly less impact on your whole wardrobe.
If you walk up to random people in a cafe, park, or embankment (really?) and ask for their numbers
So I think this is the disconnect. This isn’t window shopping; you’re trying to connect with another human being. You need to take the time to talk with her, see if she shows interest by engaging and encouraging the conversation, and if there’s any commonality or chemistry between you.
Then, if you think there could be something there, offer to give your number rather than ask for hers. It will help her feel safer with you, and she can choose whether or not to accept and if she takes it, she can choose whether or not to follow up. It puts the onus on her to move things forward.
I’m 40, and married. This isn’t about me.
You still don’t get it through, you say talk to them first, but thay limits when you can even start a conversation to very limited locations and certainly doesn’t include your suggestions around a park or embankment.
You are absolutely right. What kind of idiot would just walk up to you and take your number? Like if a girl just came up to you and you’d react normally? Even without knowing who she is and why she needs your number… 🤦🏼♀️ The man is clearly strange and obsessed with phone numbers…
there is ZERO way to indicate to others that information.
Ah, you’re getting to a challenge that women have faced forever: “If I reject this man, will he decide to attack or kill me?” (Sources: 1, 2, 3, 4,5, 6)
Or just in general the concept that’s been named “Schrodingers Rapist.”
It would be a whole lot safer for many people if there was an automatic way to see into someone’s soul to know what they are like and what they are capable of. Are they a rapist? Do they have the potential to be? Will they reject me violently? Will they publicly humiliate me?
None of us can know those things. The best we can do is to try to establish strong social skills and pattern recognition, and work to avoid the situations that put us in danger (whether physical, social, or emotional). It’s hard and there’s no silver bullet.
While you want to put the onus on women to minimize the risk of a man being publicly humiliated, you’re ignoring the realities that women are dealing with the exact same kind of uncertainties (except statistically speaking, with much worse outcomes). There isn’t an easy answer here and it’s not one that falls on just one gender to resolve.
Im not ignoring the problem women have at all, I’m suggesting that if they want men to stop asking, they take the onus upon themselves to initiate.
You’re the one blaming men as being rapists here, not me. Maybe go talk to someone, you clearly have issues.
What the hell is this exaggeration? You just go and exaggerate everything!
If you need a meeting party, go ahead and organize one. But it is logical that no one will give out a phone number during social networks! It is not 90 or 00 (depending on the level of development of the country). After all, everyone has the right to refuse an acquaintance! It is not an obligation. But to answer your question, a small conversation is quite enough. And during the conversation you will understand whether there is any sense.
Gay, ok. So he’s just looking for a girlfriend, not a girlfriend. (Fucking English… 1 friend, 2 relationships) Why then meet on the street? There are plenty of different fan fiction sites, plenty of groups on themes where you can find people who are quite tolerant of gays and lesbians. You apparently have no idea what it’s like in other countries… Today the easiest way to meet someone is the Internet. And not the street. After all, many do not accept people who violate their personal space. I won’t even mention those who already have a developed culture of “man = rapist”… It’s generally difficult to understand what some individuals have brought women…
And damn, what’s so strange about embankments??? You know, there are some in Europe - by the river! Where there is a bench or people just stroll… It feels like you never left the house…
Your reading comprehension is very low. You should work on that before arguing with people. When I suggested the handkerchief system, the word gay was indicating a specific system (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Handkerchief_code) that had previously existed that you clearly are not aware of, which is made clear by the fact that I said it should be adapted to the whole population.
Yelling at people in your second language after not understanding the arguments being made is not helpful.
Your instincts are probably well placed. Obviously different people will have different preferences and reactions in this regard, but you’re better off getting to know people in a friendly manner than just for the sake of finding a partner. Learning how to strike up conversations with strangers and leave them wanting for more is useful, but that’s about all I’d say your parents are right about.
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It’s a skill you have to learn.
Some people enjoy casual chat with random people, and some people find it annoying. There’s no right or wrong answer. It’s definitely not the only way to meet romantic partners, though, especially these days.
Yes and no. Now I’m not an expert womanizer by any means, but you kinda just gotta treat attractive women like regular people.
You can’t just walk up to somebody and go “ooga booga, wanna go out?” It’s gotta be a little casual. So you’re kind of right. But to go as far as to say you can’t strike up conversation with somebody will be insane.
Now am I going to strike up a conversation with an attractive woman? Nah I’m go pussyshit to do anything, I’ll partake in my recreational activities and hope for the best, at least I’ll die doing what I like.
Personally I think everyone is wrong here, but none of it in a mean or jerky way, just in perspective .
For your parents, it’s definitely a different vibe now, we need to be more socially conscious about walking up to a woman, we should understand that that is inherently a dangerous place for a woman and she is likely on her guard.
That being said, you shouldn’t be afraid to speak to women either, that is likely just as bad. Women are just people, they have like and dislikes, and you should talk to them the same way you would anyone.
So, I guess what I’m saying is that the days of pickup lines and sauntering over are gone. But there’s absolutely nothing wrong striking up a conversation either, and in fact I encourage it. Notice things, maybe they’re wearing a band T-shirt of a band you like, maybe they have a cool sticker on their phone or laptop, show interest. Don’t be afraid of them.
I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening. You shouldn’t need to justify not wanting to do that by appealing to some kind of cultural authority about what is acceptable to society.
Personally even as a man it normally freaks me out when strangers approach me in public. It just feels like a very unusual, unexpected and potentially unsafe kind of circumstance, almost never something positive, there’s no way I would trust such a person, so I’m not going to do that to others because it’s like I would be inflicting that on both of us simultaneously, and that would of course come through in any interaction I attempted. How could I expect them to be receptive to that when I would never be myself? People may argue, that’s the wrong way to feel and so it doesn’t matter, replace that attitude with a better one, as if they themselves could easily substitute a totally different way of being for how they are.
If you need an invitation in order to feel safe in a social situation, I would say it is ok to demand that people respect that and not mock you for it.
I think the bigger issue here is that you are obviously uncomfortable with the idea of approaching people in public and your parents are treating this as irrelevant and something you are supposed to just force yourself to do it anyway despite feeling like the situation is wrong and threatening.
Unfortunately, this is normal behavior for them. They exhibit virtually no empathy and constantly talk trash about what expectations I don’t meet. They would rather laugh at me and insult me for having issues than actually help me. I’m on my own. They will spew the most vile filth imaginable, and when I insult them back, they suddenly get all pearl-clutchy and tell me that the Bible says I have to respect them no matter how awful they treat me. I tell them “Respect is a two-way street. You don’t have to be nice to people who make your life hell” and they go “B-but the BIBLE!!” They are cry-bullies. And their parenting was so psychotic that it radicalized me into becoming progressive. My brother, devout follower of their teachings, grew up to become a literal cat killer. And they treat him as a perfect child and ask why I can’t be like him. Yeah, uh, no thanks.
As a defense mechanism, I eventually learned to be contrarian. Whatever my parents said, I would take away the opposite lesson. Where they were rude, I was kind. Where they were discriminatory, I was inclusive. Where they promoted certain kinds of people as superior, I believed that no kind was inherently better than any other. Instead of ignoring suffering, I believed in helping those in need. The person I am resulted from my survival of this environment, not an embrace of it.
But this contrarianism prevents me from taking away nuanced lessons, and that means I need to intentionally seek that nuance. By asking about this issue, I hope to gain an understanding of some of that nuance, at least enough to help me continue to grow instead of falling into defeatism.
If you’re not dependent on your parents, think about cutting them out of your life or at least strongly reducing contact. Trust me, mich less stress this way, choose people who are good to you to keep around.
Instead of making a move or straight up asking the out on a date. Just strike up a convo. You can really tell when someone doesn’t want to push a conversation. Maybe they find you attractive and keep the conversation going?
If you want to cold approach, go to the club.
Yeah I find that if the other person gives some dry responses in your conversation and you’re still trying to throw tinder making the conversation going, then they’re probably not interested.
If you wouldn’t strike up a conversation with a guy, don’t strike up a conversation with a woman. Be comfortable with conversations with strangers of whatever gender with no ulterior motive, and you’ll meet more people.
If you meet more people, your likelihood of finding dates will increase as a side effect.
If you are only approaching women, particularly women you find attractive, in places that are not generally for that purpose (bars, parties, swingers clubs), then you’re being a creep.
But regardless, it’s better to have interests, pursue those interests, and meet people with similar interests. Because when you have interests, you might become interesting, and someone might become interested.
I agree with everything else but the starting bit about only starting conversations when you’d also do it with a guy: if you’re not into guys… like on a dating site you’d not equally talk to the men, why at a sports club if you’re wanting a relationship with a woman? If you think someone’s fun and attractive in a way you’d simply not have with a bloke, hecking yes talk to them where appropriate and be friends (if they also want to be) and see if they really match and are also into you etc.
I think they meant “if you’re only approaching people you want to fuck, you’re not going to find success”
I met almost all of my previous girlfriends (including my now wife) either at parties my friends threw, or hobbies I was interested in. I never once went to a club to pick people up or try to meet people intentionally in public. That’s always seemed too creepy for me.
Women are just people.
If you learn to talk to men you don’t know, you’ll learn to talk to women you don’t know. It’s not inappropriate unless you’re trying to get something out of the situation. So don’t. Just make some new friends. Of both sexes.
As for when/where, find some hobbies. Go do the hobbies. You’ll meet people at the hobbies. Some of those people will be ladies.
So, this is one of the unfortunate traps of our time, especially if you live in a place with car dependent sprawl. Women don’t want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc), and, really, nobody does. You want to work at work, and you want to do your business and go home otherwise. This goes doubly or triply so for complete strangers. There’s really no third places (as they’re called) left, where people go for the express purpose of being social and together. That’s what’s missing here. As someone else said, you are, unfortunately, both a little right.
It’s particularly bad in places like the US that have car dependent sprawl because
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cities often have had their zoning ordinances weaponized by NIMBYs, and it’s probably outright illegal to have a small cafe or shop in your neighborhood, or they’re required to have some outrageous parking minimum or something like that.
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driving sucks more than you may be aware of while you’re doing it. If you have to get into your car to go to the grocery, you don’t want to make five stops at smaller grocers throughout the week; you’d rather just make one big stop at the big box mart and just go tf home. If you want to stop at a cafe, well, just swing through the starbucks drive through so you don’t have to be bothered with getting out.
Well, chances are that most of your interactions at chain businesses and stores are anonymous, so you’re not meeting other people in your community there, you’re not creating any bonds or relationships there, you’re doing your business and getting out, which, frankly, is what they want. You’re especially not making any friends in the drive thru line. For nearly seventy years now, we’ve built our cities to be homes to cars, not people, and it’s bearing fruit in the form of the loneliness epidemic.
My advice to you would be to go out of your way to find situations where people are getting together for the purpose of being social or having fun. Look for classes put on by your local city parks, go check your local library’s bulletin board for events, check social media communities for your nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly. If you’re religious, seek out some religious institutions that you find palatable.
Women don’t want to be solicited while at work or on personal business (groceries, gym, etc),
But they’re fine being solicited while
classes put on by your local city parks, local library’s events, nearby city or town for groups that meet regularly?
Maybe I’m too autistic to understand, but unless those groups are specifically meant for finding a date, it seems to be functionally the same as “personal business.” They’re not interested in being solicited, they just want to have class at class, or book club at book club, or talk about town planning (or whatever these enigmatic town meetings contain) at the meetings. What makes them so different? Even if they’re there to talk (like a book club,) they’re there to talk about books not dating me.
The main difference is that they’re there specifically for the social experience. These folks are not going there to date you, no, but they are going there to socialize, so the barriers to socializing with strangers are greatly lowered. Maybe don’t just go there with dating front and center in your mind; instead focus on just meeting and getting to know people.
I suppose, could be.
Though tbf, I don’t go anywhere “with dating front and center in my mind,” I go places for reasons, and sometimes while at these places I see someone I think is cute and also looks maybe cool, and then dating pops into my mind, like, “oh shit they’re cute, and they look like they might be cool, I wonder if they’d be into me and if it could work out.” Dating is put into my mind by nature of seeing someone I may be interested in dating.
Is that not normal?
That sounds pretty normal to me. Though, in total fairness, I’m ADHD myself, so I feel a lot of what you’ve been saying here. Especially being hyper aware of the social meta. I’ve also learned a lot of advanced masking over the years. Yeah, definitely, if you’re at a social event and someone catches your interest, just start with going and meeting them. Introduce yourself, and a small heartfelt compliment doesn’t hurt, “hey, that was a good question, I wish I’d thought of that”, for example. Also, asking low-risk questions about other people is a good way to endear them to you, “is this your first time going to this class/club? Oh? What got you interested in it?” Etc. These are all pretty good ways to start getting a conversation going so you can get a feel for that person. If it turns out you like that person, you can always offer to trade contact info so you can keep talking, or ask if you could meet somewhere (specific like “the library” or “that coffee shop”) public at a specific time to chat; people tend to be more receptive if you have something specific you want to chat about, even if it’s “getting to know you”. It’s also usually better to put that off until after a second encounter in public, I think. Last, If they ask if it’s a date, be up front, only say “no” or “it doesn’t have to be” if you really mean it. Ofc, YMMV. Best of luck!
very well said. just moved away from Dallas for this very reason. it’s strange to be living right on top of so many people and yet paradoxically feel so isolated from all of them. cars are a scourge on human health in nearly every way imaginable
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Learning how to engage and socialize with people of both sexes is a necessary skill. As long as your not being a toxic mess in front of them, you’re fine.
Yeah it’s super weird when people pick a very specific thing.
Like, imagine if someone wrote “I avoid approaching Brazilian Men With Beards in public because I believe it’s inappropriate. My parents say that it’s a necessary skill. Who is right?”
Speak to people like people. Stop thinking about what’s in their pants.
I think you’re both a little right. Yeah, they grew up in a world where it was generally more socially acceptable to approach strange women on the street than it is today. But that doesn’t mean that you’re never allowed to do it, either.
I think it’d be good to takeaway a bit of both arguments. Yes, you shouldn’t harass women on the street, but also it’s totally fine to talk to women as long as you’re respectful and take the hint if they’re not interested.
I think the key difference is approaching them to try and “pick them up” versus approaching for a conversation. The former can be creepy and inappropriate while the latter is less so (depending on your demeanor and the situation).
This thread is not meant for autistic people.
“Yes you can talk to women in public, but also not flirt with them even though that’s the obvious context of the post, but also there are some public places you can flirt with them that are somehow different from the other public places, and also it’s fine in the places where it isn’t.”
I’ve come to the conclusion from this thread that the answer lies somewhere near “actually some women hate it and some women don’t, and since the only way to find out which is which is by stepping on the landmine, you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no.”
And in all honesty, yeah fuck it, I’m gonna. I don’t want to make anyone uncomfortable, but being that the other option is “die alone and get eaten by my cats” I think it’s just going to have to happen.
Makes me think if I’m autistic
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i really want to be left alone in parks. i go there to chill, not to have some awkward dude sit down next to me and try to strike up a conversation with an obvious ulterior motive.
Just to point out how subjective the whole time-and-place thing is. Not saying someone with a lot of tact couldnt pull it off. But thats not the target demography of a post like this.
Getting to know someone through shared interests/common activities is definitely the safer route, not just for the guys.
I’m a guy, and if a girl sits down next to me and talks to me in a park or even in a bar, hundreds of red flags will be raised that there’d be an impromptu Soviet parade in my head.
Sure, I’d respond politely, but I’d be constantly wondering what she actually wants from me: recruit into a sus MLM thing? recruit into a sus cult? recruit into a sus MLM cult thing? And I am sure that if the genders were reversed (a guy hitting me up, a woman, all of a sudden), it’d not be a Soviet parade, but an all-out scramble for the bunkers. That’s not to say all women think the same as I do, though, but just echoing the OP’s sentiment, which I somehow agree on.
There are far safer avenues for talking to the person of your preferred gender (or non-gender), where flirting is tolerated more, than out in public.
I’m really impressed by how level headed everyone is here, to be honest.
you might as well flirt with anyone you want at wherever you see them, but do it politely and move on if she says no.
Yeah that’s about all you can do in reality.
Just remember not to be persistent if it feels off immediately, do not violate anyone’s space more than necessary (do not go for physical contact as a rule of thumb, strike up a conversation instead, if unsure of social rules) and most importantly, listen to them and try your best to take the hint if they can’t find a way to be direct and instead attempt to politely fend you off.
But there are a lot of social rules and cues everyone should be aware of, which definitely makes it hard for those unable to feel them. It doesn’t mean you can’t try your darnest though. Intent is important, so as long as you mean no harm, and do not break the obvious rules of personal space and no is no, nothing irreversible will happen.
It is and will be awkward, but it often is for us too who can sense and understand (at least most of) the “rules”. That’s just being human.
The worst is if you overthink it. Just figure if it’s appropriate and follow some sensible rules of thumb if it’s hard to sense the appropriateness, and then be the awkward clumsy you that most of everyone is in context like this.
Even if you radiate charm, are a natural with words and gestures, are in perfect harmony with the ambiguous rules of social interactions etc, you’re bound to misread people and situations sooner rather than later, and that’s just something that happens.
Being human is… very human. That is, awkward and clumsy and often disappointing. The upside is that it’s also surprising, exciting, invigorating and so full of possibilities and such joy, if you just manage to get past the also very human aversion to any potential awkwardness or disappointments.
This became a weird rant. But as someone with adhd and some weird natural drive for other humans that I haven’t been able to understand myself, I do often fail to think things through and approach people without much thinking. I have the benefit of naturally not overthinking it until after the fact. The world has never ended and I’ve lived a colorful, socially rich life, and for whatever it’s worth, I’ve not ended up being perceived as a creep or a threat or whatever, at least not widely so. So that tells me it’s pretty hard to cause any real damage to yourself or others as long as you’re respectful, aware of the dynamic and even if not fully aware of the social cues and rules, follow a set of your own rules of thumb that you find result in socially acceptable behaviour.
Don’t let the fear of unknown or being ridiculed or whatever block you from having meaningful social interactions. Even the most charismatic or naturally social and talkative of us end up in awkward situations and sometimes end up disappointed or ashamed for reading the cues wrong. Stuff happens. That’s life. For everyone.
But just try and be mindful of the place, the time, the surroundings, and do not violate anyone’s personal space more than necessary, and take no as an answer immediately if even hinted at. Might sound like even that’s a lot, but in time, with practice, as with just about everything else we do, these things will start coming naturally and built in in our everyday goings on.
Trust in yourself if you mean no harm. That’s about it. No one can fault someone with good intentions and respectful manners, if they keep their space and don’t persist when told or hinted no. You might get ashamed or even shocked for how wrong you read stuff, but again, that happens to everyone, even if rarely. We are all humans, and there’s a baseline level of awkwardness and inability to really read anyone’s mind that comes with the territory. So just try and trust yourself in that.
Let me prephase this by saying that I have never been officially diagnosed but there’s a good chance that I’m in the spectrum.
This is my philosophy on the matter: you won’t find a girlfriend talking to a random person just because of their looks, so if it was a guy, would you talk to them? If the answer is no then I won’t. For example, pretty girl on the bus, I wouldn’t talk to a pretty guy on the bus so I don’t; Pretty girl talking about something I have an interest in, or similar, I might talk to a pretty guy doing that about our common interest so I feel it’s okay. That being said I’m not much for talking to random strangers in person unless we’re in a social gathering, and I would feel very uncomfortable itlf a random person came to talk to me out of the blue, so even though all that I said above there’s a 99% chance I won’t talk to a random person anyways.
