Men don’t understand no, I’ve heard this before…
In what way? I don’t understand how that pertains to this.
I hope this is a joke?
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He is like: “I used the transphobia to destroy the transphobia”
This is deliciously rich. They really painted themselves into a corner with that one!
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No, there still is. Trans men suffer from all of the same patriarchal oppression that cis men suffer from. The loneliness, the isolation, the expectation that they have no emotion. If you somehow watch trans people TikTok, The men’s biggest complaint is that they now have no friends.
So yes, the patriarchy exists even if gender is a construct. Because one of those constructed genders oppresses the others, and themselves.
And from what I’m being told by the internet, men make the best women.
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That’s cool, except if only certain people with certain body configurations have the uncontrolled freedom to be themselves, that’s still a problem.
Or, as long as people who do not identify with the body they were given are ostricized, there are problems. As long as there are people who are groped because their body is different, lynched because their skin is different, or kept out of certain rooms just because of growths on their bodies they have no control over, there are problems.
Just because you remove a label doesn’t mean there isnt a problem any more.
In that case, is “patriarchy” the right label? Most men (racial minorities, non-cis, etc) face systematic oppression, so it doesn’t seem like gender is the problem. Seems like oppression follows class lines, not gender, race, orientation, etc.
I don’t care if you call it The Wibbly Fuck Problem. Stop worrying about what it’s called and just do something about it. Damn. Everyone always worry about the unimportant shit.
I see a lot of mouth and no trousers/skirt in this statement.
Pervert. I don’t have to show you my ass just so you don’t be a dick.
What are you doing to stop the ruling class from oppressing the rest of us? Seems like you’re just posting on Lemmy, same as me.
Oppression follows ALL those lines. Oppression and privilege are intersections. That’s why a woman can be black but also be rich and live a better life than a dude who’s poor.
Maybe Kyriarchy works better for you? It describes a multi layered and interactive web of stacked series of oppressive factors that encompasses race, class, gender, sexual orientation, ablism issues etc.
Though under the definitions of patriarchy men are still oppressed. Young men and the poor are held in sway and looked at as disposable pawns and labor by the patriarchs - powerful men in the lead positions, like male heads of the family, but in this instance the ‘family’ is government, military, businesses and corperations, guilds, unions and bosses. The the buy in for those men at the bottom is that even a lowly man gets to feel like they are better at least than women. The act of being a woman is an automatic sort of failure state. Hence why men behaving in a feminine fashion are a threat. It subverts the hierarchy when someone willing chooses to behave as “lesser” of their own volition and seem happier for it.
The the buy in for those men at the bottom is that even a lowly man gets to feel like they are better at least than women.
This hasn’t been my experience, most authorities in my life have been women (teachers, bosses, etc). Even upper leadership in the company I currently work for has slightly more women than men. Obviously not everyone has the same experience, but I don’t think the picture you tried to paint is a universal truth.
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I have a XX/XY friend. You tell me their sex/gender.
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Spoken like someone who doesn’t know any psychiatrists or psychologists…
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What hearings are you referring to?
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“Patriarchy.” You use the word but you dont know what it means. We’re not talking about heads of households, we’re talking about the halls of power; which are controlled by cis men. Gender Equality advocates are not making claims that “men don’t exist,” just that gender its a highly varied spectrum. My guess is you already know this, and willfully ignore nuance so you can push a counter ideological stance. That makes you a lame-o. Sorry.
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How come
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“It’s worse somewhere else so the problem doesn’t exist” has always been a shit argument and you know it.
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Neither do I guess. 👋
So as long as it isn’t as bad as Saudi Arabia there are no problems?
Something being a social construct does not mean it has no real world effects. That’s kind of the point of identifying it as a social construct. HTH
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So you do think there is a patriarchy? And you think it is based on fact, not the social construction of gender?
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So, you think you live in a society where discrimination based on sex does not exist.
Where is that, and what is your evidence for your claim?
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The natural male urge to sit in a cubicle for 10 hours a day
It’s still a social construct if it’s based on facts. Social construct doesn’t mean fake, it means we gave it a name and meaning.
Would they win in a contest that has female beauty parameters tho? It’s like judging an M based on how similar it looks to an F
That’s not the fucking point, clownshoes!
Then what is it?
It’s not about winning, it’s about sending a message. The message being that trans women shouldn’t have any problem competing with cis women if the judges feel that trans men will have a problem competing with cis women. I hope that make sense to read.
This happens when transphobes forgets that trans men exists lol.
They exist? Thought they were a fairytale
I know three.
In fact, come to think of it, I only know two trans women, so I know more trans men than trans women.
Fairy*
I’d love to
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What is protest part? Not sure it is malicious compliance either because contestant was not rebirthed as woman. Not that it’s possible unless you are buddhist.
It eould be a Interesting Idea to make a Trans-Fenake Fashion Show as Protest.
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You’re out here acting a fool for free 🤷
I hope he wins. That’d be really funny.
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While I don’t like the concept of pagents in general, I would like to think that my own standards are pretty good, and I also think you should leave.
They were forcibly shoved through the door.
Neither did your mom. She just let some hobo pump and dump her, and now you’re walking around this planet spreading your shitheel ignorance.
Dude chill, don’t feed the troll.
Nom nom nom
He has to come out in slacks, his special talent should be mowing the lawn. Tuxedo print t shirt for evening gown. REPRESENT!
Imagine a buff, bearded person that identifies as male wins in a contest that measures female beauty
I know right? It’ll finally make pagents worth watching.
We should also get drag queen bodybuilding competitions. If everything is going to be reality TV for a while (support the strike, by the way) I’d at least want them to be entertaining.
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I would love to see drag queen strong person competitions. Imagine log rolling in heels and an evening gown?
Ooh, or maybe like that next ninja whatever show. I can’t remember what it’s called. The one with all the crazy acrobatics and stuff. Imagine having to do that obstacle course where you hang from the bar and “jump” while holding the bar to the next slot, but you have to sing And I Am Telling You while you do it!
American TV could get real fucking good, real fucking fast.
Holy crapoli, I’ve tried other peoples heels briefly a few times. I have no idea how people even walk in them let alone log roll in them! That sounds like some great entertainment tbh.
Or imagine one of those lumberjack competitions where they scale the trees and top them.
This is the kind of television we need!
Imagine them having to apply makeup while running chainsaws? It’d put japanese games shows to shame!
Rapper warrior ninja. :)
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What if I have a fabulous dick, but the rest of me is blah?
That depends on what you’re allowed to wear for the swimsuit section.
Then you put googly eyes and a little rhinestone pantsuit on it and stick a video up on…well, I guess YouTube wouldn’t take it.
Pornhub, maybe?
Just crop those parts out of your OnlyFans posts.
No need to brag to those of us whose entirety is eurgh
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Put my dick in what now?
“Instructions unclear” popped into my mind immediately.
Zorque is envied by every gent,
’Cause it’s fab when he pitches a tent
Every saint and sinner
Can each be a winner
When his dick’s in the beauty pageant
The last time I tried that the police were called.
Just got to find the right contest, friend
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You’re right; men pretending to be women are drag queens, not women, trans or otherwise.
Trans women are women, though.
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So?
Nobody ever said they are female, afaik.
Trans women are women.
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Define “most” and cite sources.
What does “biological female” mean?
So you check people’s genes before you decide on what pronoun to use?
Thank you for adding fun to my day!
Trans women are trans women. It’s not a one way street.
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Trans men pretending to be women aren’t women, they’re men.
That’s what you meant, right?
Good thing they’re not men pretending to be women, I guess?
Theres one miss thats only for women and its you missing your shot every time.
These contests are full of ideology, so a trans person has a significant advantage over the others. There aren’t enough heartwarming and sob stories in the world to compensate for that.
On the other hand, I don’t really care if those kind of competitions are unfair. If they help trans people convey a message, that’s probably the best thing that can come out of them.
Ah yes, the competitions currently banning trans women definitely have a positive bias towards them.
It’s funny because the original trans sports bans were justified by saying that they would have an unfair advantage. This beauty pageant ban is just transphobes saying that trans women are unfairly attractive lmfao.
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Have fun not interacting with this community anymore.
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Trans women are women, asshole
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How is it degrading and limiting?
Biologically incorrect.
Biological sex is just a made up thing and there are no definitions that actually work universally for every human. Thats actually the scientific truth.
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You are so objectively wrong… and fortunately for me: I don’t have to listen to you, and will now use that authority to make others not have to listen to you for you violated the civility rule of the instance!
Except for the hundreds of millions of species of lifeforms for which male and female biological sex is not part of their biology. But what do PhDs know about biology? they just scientifically study the core tenets of life.
There are about as much intersexuated humans as they are redheads.
Lots of species only have “1 sex” since they reproduce asexually (including some neat lizards).
Fungi went a bit overboards and you’d lack fingers to count most of them.
It’s like imaginary numbers, stuff is always a little more complicated than you were taught in middle school :)
You should stop refering to middle school biology and check out university biology. And maybe also stop refering to outdated knowledge that’s been disproven.
Ok, since you’re the expert, what defines gender?
Gender is made up. Sex is not. Not taking any sides just correcting you
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Mod here. Just want to openly and unequivocally state… I will remove your comment if you’re transphobic. I will refer to trans people to let me know if you are being transphobic. I will ban you if you make an egregiously off colour comment. and I will take pleasure in doing this. Fuck your transphobic bullshit, go somewhere else. Nobody wants you here.
What a hero
Fucking A right. n
You are amazing, brave people and deserve a place in society where you are loved . M
👍
Thank you so much!
Cis guy here. Based mod.
Uhhh??? Based???
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Frankly, I don’t care what you think of it. Transphobia is not allowed. This isn’t a democracy. It’s pretty simple: don’t be an asshole.
Every comment removed violates the civility rules of this instance. Which reads thus (emphasis mine):
Do not engage in name calling, ad hominem attacks, or any other uncivil behaviour. Criticize ideas, never people.
IOW: Be transphobic and be prepared for me to iron fist the vagueness of those words. It’s pretty easy not to be an asshole.
Just to play devils advocate, wouldn’t that mean it’s okay to criticize the idea of transgenderism if you don’t criticize the people who are transgender (although not really sure if that’s even possible)?
That would be like trying to criticize blackness without criticizing black people, it’s not possible.
Yes. If you could prove transgenderism exists. See because you attach an -ism to it you are (in English) saying “the ideology of transgender individuals” which is “we exist” which is not an ideology. It is a fact. You can disagree with facts all you want but it doesn’t make you smart.or intellectual… it makes you wrong.
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“The idea of being transgender” it’s not an idea anymore than you think about being cisgender. It’s a false dichotomy created by cisgender people who fail to understand the issue or fall victim to the “gay agenda” rhetoric of right wing media.
A better way to phrase it is no trans person thinks of themselves as trans. A trans woman thinks of herself as a woman. A trans man thinks of himself as a man. So there’s no “idea” of “being transgender” unless you’re a cis person who thinks they know what they’re talking about.
It’s like the phrase “differently abled” only able bodied people think like that.
“Criticize ideas, never people.” Guess I can’t criticize serial killers- nevermind
Them’s be the rules of this entire instance.
That’s the thing about choosing an instance, it’s his house, his rules. At least with Lemmy it’s like you can move out to the next building, Reddit is like living in jail nowhere left to move.
God bless it I fucking love lemmy! 😄
Bruh, just do your job/hobby. Mods acting high and mighty is a big part of what made reddit so toxic.
This is my job: to make perfectly clear what is and isn’t allowed. In no uncertain terms I will make sure this place is as free from transphobia as possible.
The good thing about Lemmy you can move to another instance with free speech.
This is free speech. They get to say what they please. They are not free from the consequences of those words however. I, as a private citizen and not a governmental actor, can censor them.
I disagree, free speech means the right to express any opinions and ideas without censorship or restraint even if you find them offensive.
You said you will remove any comment that is transphobic and ban if “you make an egregiously off colour comment”.
That is not free speech, and it’s ok. Your instance, your rules.
They can say what they want without restraint or restriction. They are not free from the consequences of their words.
They can say what they like. We can ban them if we don’t like it. That’s how free speech works in a consequentialist society (modern Western society is a synthesis of consequentialism and contractualism).
Censor and banning opinions and ideas you don’t like is anti free speech.
You were allowed to say it. I’m allowed to remove it. Welcome to the world. Don’t like it? Leave.
But also: nobody in the world actually likes the idea of absolutist free speech. The founding fathers certainly didn’t believe in such an idea.
That’s literally not free speech. If I say I like to eat broccoli every day and that people should try it for health reasons and you’re some kind of carnivore mod and it tickles you the wrong way and you block me for it… That’s censorship and the opposite of free speech.
You’re telling me that you control the narrative. Now there’s nuance to censorship for sure, but you’re telling me that if you don’t like what I say I’m out. I have to type within the confines of the bubble of what isn’t too uncomfortable for you.
I say let the downvotes do the talking. If I go on the electric vehicles instance talking about how (non-ironocally) I love to roll coal and how that’s what’s keeping me from trying EVs, I expect to be downvoted into the shadow realm. And that’s ok. What I’m not ok with is a mod assuming that my voice sucks and that I don’t deserve to be heard. Maybe some smart lemmier(?) will point out some doodad that makes a brrr noise and shoots out some harmless mist or something.
Censorship and restraint from the government. This isn’t that, so the consequences are not covered.
Free speech is about the government not being able to restrict your speech. Guess what? Lemmy isn’t the government.
Thanks for everything you do to keep this community safe. I know it can’t be easy.
idk, I just got to yeet like at least a handful of transphobes into oblivion so… was pretty fun.
It’s important to find work that also nourishes your soul.
Thank you for not being reddit.
Lol
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she’s a robot
YES. This is EXACTLY what I’ve been saying!!! Like honestly, as a cis woman from Italy I’m so embarrassed by this nonsense. Like, cutting trans women out of the competition at this moment just means people are recognizing that trans women are “unfairly” more good looking than cis women. Which, personally, is true in my case but you don’t see me bitching about it. Fuck yeah trans dudes, trans chicks and non-binary buddies.
Wait what? I get why someone would forbid trans women from participating in female sports events, but why TF can’t they go to beauty contests?
It’s wrong to ban trans women from women’s sports, because trans women are women.
But they have the muscles of a male and usually beat all women-since-birth in competitions.
Yeah, Ik I’m gonna get downvoted to oblivion and I’m gonna get called TERF but that’s the reason it’s controversial in the first place
Given a long enough time on the right hormones, and most (not all) of that advantage disappears. “While absolute lean mass remains higher in trans women, relative percentage lean mass and fat mass (and muscle strength corrected for lean mass), hemoglobin, and VO2 peak corrected for weight was no different to cisgender women. After 2 years of GAHT, no advantage was observed for physical performance measured by running time or in trans women. By 4 years, there was no advantage in sit-ups. While push-up performance declined in trans women, a statistical advantage remained relative to cisgender women.”
There’s also a large band of ability within people. Michael Phelps has a genetic advantage, but his accomplishments are still celebrated.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/advance-article/doi/10.1210/clinem/dgad414/7223439?login=false
Here is my question though, and if you have any info I’d love to see it. Do performance enhancing drugs interact in men and women the same way? I ask since not all enhancing drugs are banned.
If yes, how do these interact with tans people? Would a trans woman be able to get more positive effects from the drugs?
It’s rare that I see someone type a comment that mentions everything I want to say. You rock!
What’s your idea of what a trans woman’s body looks like, exactly? Like, do you think a trans woman is just “a man in a dress”? Because that’s just straight up inaccurate in every way. HRT changes trans people’s bodies and how those bodies work. That’s why we say “trans women are women and trans men are men”. Like, would you think making someone with the body of Buck Angel compete in women’s competitions would be fair? Google Buck Angel, look at him and then come back at me.
Hormones are not going to reshape someone’s body structure
Except they do. Literally look at any picture of a trans woman before and after transitioning. Their bodies literally change in every sense.
“Oh their fat is accumulated in other places”
I’m talking about internal stuff
I’m trans and I actually agree with you. I don’t know the solution to make things fair, but I wouldn’t want to use a strong biological advantage over someone else.
I see it like if I’d been born with some identifiable and categorised physical advantage then I shouldn’t be competing against people without that advantage.
It’s debatable how big the difference is, however, and whether it’s a gap easily closed or not. My thoughts are that there could be an open category where anyone could compete on the understanding that there may be severe biological differences. There’s no easy solution :(
Edit: thinking about it, sporting competitions are more sex-catagorised than gender-categorised. I don’t think someone identifying as female with no physical/medical alterations from a biological male form should compete with biological females and I don’t think that should be controversial since the gender isn’t what people care about there. It’s the physical characteristics. In some sports that might provide an advantage, in some a disadvantage, but I do this it’s important to discuss! At that point, however, you’d be better ignoring gender and sex entirely and only categorising sports like ‘feather weight’ or ‘strong muscular development’ or something
I mean… some cis women are born thicker and taller than others which might be an advantage over other women, biologically. Yet, nobody disqualifies those women from competing. It just means everyone else has to be twice as competitive and work around their physical limits. Sports are largely about overcoming one’s performance limits. Like, a shorter basketball player can still play basketball and be really good at it, it’s all about how they train, what they focus on and how they play. And it’s about how good they are at dealing with the space around them and controlling their body. This was always the case, always in the history of sports. Being a stronger athlete was never a problem before, and now suddenly it is? It doesn’t make any sense, and it’s just an excuse for bad athletes who don’t wanna git gud to demand special treatment. I’m speaking as a cis woman who’s bigger than most other women around me. Not my fault that I can accidentally throw other chicks to the bleachers without even being aware of them, and I’m still a woman no matter how other people see me. So yeah, this whole discourse affects me too, because trans people being targeted also targets any person who was born intersex or just different.
Just make it body mass based
I think this is where it makes sense to go. Like wrestling, right? Just make every sport competition divided on gender if it’s that important, and then divided on the basis of body mass. Although frankly I think that would make every sport ten times more boring than it needs to be. Like smaller athletes usually need to figure out a way to still compete, and that’s where part of the fun is, both in competing and watching. If an athlete feels disadvantaged, they’re just lazy and not training well or enough.
Then again, I do think sports should be less owned by massive corporations and media companies, and move more to their dimension of play, admiration for each other and self-improvement. Not saying sports shouldn’t be jobs and not have money go in and out, but they should center that dimension a lot less.
Ok, hold on, why would you forbid trans women from competing? Because of “unfair advantages”? First off, trans women who completed their transition don’t have a male body. They have a female body. And some athletes are naturally better at some sports than others. Like, shorter basketball players are naturally disadvantaged at basket, which is why they need to train twice as hard as taller players or switch to another sport. Also, every whiny white woman complaining about trans women doing better than them always forgets to mention the athletes winning are still the cis ones, which destroys the idea that trans women have an advantage.
The point never held up either in sports nor anywhere else. And it was never about sports anyway.
Bone and muscle structure won’t change because of transition
You’d be surprised.
From experience, female clothes aren’t proportioned to fit trans women as well as cis women. While in your other comment you make a good point about some cis women also being outside the ‘conventional’ physical expectations for women in western society, that doesn’t also mean that trans people don’t face the same issues. We talk about these problems from a trans perspective because trans people are often targeted with legislation and rules from people who don’t understand, and are blocked from being treated as their preferred gender. A bulky cis woman might share physical characteristics with a trans woman, but their existence is also significantly less opposed.
Edit: to my first point there are a number of biological size/proportion differences between cis men and cis women that can be seen here: https://ehs.oregonstate.edu/sites/ehs.oregonstate.edu/files/pdf/ergo/ergonomicsanddesignreferenceguidewhitepaper.pdf
Oh yeah, for sure, I’m not saying gnc cis woman face the same amount of oppression as trans women. What I’m saying is, by shoving people into very restrictive, hyper-specific boxes, we end up excluding people who by definition shouldn’t be excluded. Like the cis athlete who was excluded from competing because she naturally produces more testosterone than the others. While being cis, again. Or like, all the cis gnc women who get attacked or murdered because transphobes think they’re trans when they’re not.
My point is, women aren’t all the same. Also, women who are naturally prone to packing muscles can and sometimes do go toe to toe with men in terms of height and strength. But they’re still cis women, and should compete as cis women.
But all of this is pointless anyway: this is a BEAUTY contest, and excluding trans women in this historical period is basically like saying trans women have “unfair advantages in the field of beauty” which I mean, could be, but it’s very much a self-report. There’s also the objection that “trans women do surgeries to look the way they look” which yeah, true, but cis women who participate in Miss Italia also very much do get surgery to look the way they look. Matter of fact, there have been multiple scandals about Miss Italy winners having gone through plastic surgery to win. So I mean, everything goes.
Because excluding trans women from sports was never actually about fairness. It’s about normalizing excluding trans people from aspects of public life.
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